no lyrics, don;t post here??????

D

dcptnsdcvd

New member
is a song not a song without lyrics?
i see an awuful lot of pople being told to post their songs in the mp3 forum if the're looking for musical critique rather than lyrical critique. is it not songwriting if theres no lyrics?
the mp3 clinic talks more about distortion from file conversion and stuff like that, not how good the music of a song sounds.
it's still a song if theres no lyrics yet.
and one thing that i think people in here are failing to do is give their lyricsl ideas for these songs that don;t have lyrics yet. if it doesn;t have lyrics in it, why don;t you make some suggestions rather than telling them to post in a forum that has nothing to do with songwriting?
theres more to songwriting than lyrics. theres mood, meaning (and yes, a song without lyrics still holds a meaning), energy, chaos or serenity.
comment on these things when i post songs that don;t have lyrics yet. i'd like more input from "songwriters" than how good my lyrics are. lyrics arn't a song without music any more than music isn't a song without lyrics. so comment on the music. songwriting is songwriting, not lyric writing.
just my 2 cents,
Mike...
 
The generally accepted definition of a "song" is music with lyrics. One may have a facility for writing melodies, or lyrics, but that doesn't make one a "songwriter" per se. A "songwriter" is someone who can write great music and put an intelligent lyric with it.
To answer your initial question:

"is a song not a song without lyrics?"

No, it isn't. It's an "instrumental".
 
a lyric is nothing but another instrument in a song. just like a guitar or piano. it's just a person's voice. a beautiful guitar melody says as much "words" as a person's voice speaking.
 
There are many, many beautiful "Songs without words" (i.e. Mendelsohn's etc.) Music is communication, after all. But I think usually the tune is there to serve the words, as a singer I have to be aware of that at all times to give a meaningful performance.

I personally have no problem at all with songs without words. It is the melody and harmony that draws me first to any song; at heart I'm actually a "tunesmith" not a lyricist. But I believe I'm in a minority there. You have to respect the audience!

Cheers.
 
According to the dictionary a song is "a brief composition written or adapted for singing".

I must admit that I haven't been a critique to any mp3 submissions because most of my posts on this board are done from work and I can't download MP3's.

A songwriter is a person who writes music, lyrics or both.

In summary, yes all songs in mp3 format should be reviewed, however they should be looked at from a sound that appears in the recording as opposed to does the mix sound right.

Just my thoughts...

Porter
 
"a lyric is nothing but another instrument in a song. just like a guitar or piano."

That's an interesting philosophy, but I think most lyricists would disagree with it. You will find many more people who write good music than you will find great lyricists.
 
laff.....

quote: A "songwriter" is someone who can write great music and put an intelligent lyric with it.

I wonder what Frank Zappa would say to this?
"Going to montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tycoon." is not what Id call an "intelligent lyric" but that shit is hella funny and the groove is killer. Just cause one may write about things "unintelligently" doesnt make him/her any less of a songwriter. Oh sure some are better then others, and some are more famous then others.
To me a songwriter, is someone who can do BOTH, create music and write lyrics to it. It sure as hell doesnt require "intelligence", just listen to that alternative pop rock bullshit on MTV.
Heres a joke:
What do you get when you play alternative music backwards?
A fucking life.
 
Yeah, it seems to me this forum should be where one goes on this board for questions and feedback relating to all types of 'compositional' concerns. The mp3 clinic doesn't seem to be taking up that banner very well. Or maybe the "true songwriters" have already driven all the other composers away from here?

barefoot
 
I dont think so Barefoot....

THe mp3 forum is where you let others listen to your stuff. How can you comment on other people's persption of composing a song. Who's to say that one chord wont jell with another. I notice people comment on both lyrics and music there as well. I though THIS forum was geared more to the lyrical end of the song.
 
The MP3 forum is to review the quality of the recording of a song......this is a recording web site.....the additional comments concerning the merits of the music and lyric are ancillary.....

This forum is about songwriting.....that's music and lyrics.....that's what makes a song............

Now....the way I see it is that there are accepted industry standards for the composition of tunage.......I didn't think them up......not all successful writers follow them either.....
eg. Smashing Pumpkins...............their lyrics are inane....but,.....
they couple a vaque and most often bizzare lyric with a killer melody.........along with a devote fan base that can relate to their personas.......that is a formula for success.....

Ok....so....how do you critique a lyric......without music???

I use the standards that have been pre - established.......

How else can you do it?? especially without music....ya know?

Later......
 
" laff.....
quote: A "songwriter" is someone who can write great music and put an intelligent lyric with it.

I wonder what Frank Zappa would say to this?
"Going to montana soon, gonna be a dental floss tycoon." is not what Id call an "intelligent lyric" but that shit is hella funny and the groove is killer. Just cause one may write about things "unintelligently" doesnt make him/her any less of a songwriter. Oh sure some are better then others, and some are more famous then others.
To me a songwriter, is someone who can do BOTH, create music and write lyrics to it. It sure as hell doesnt require "intelligence", just listen to that alternative pop rock bullshit on MTV."

Did I hit a nerve here? I was merely commenting on the initial question: "Is a song a song without lyrics?"
I stated that it was an instrumental. Ms. Green mentioned Mendelsohn, but I thought we were talking about popular music, not the classics. Frank Zappa wrote some of the most "intelligent" lyrics ever written, and was a genius at orchestration. He was a songwriter. Jimmy Webb is sitting in his house up in Laurel Canyon counting his money because he wrote great melodies and "intelligent" lyrics. Harlan Howard wrote hundreds of #1 songs, none of which you in particular would consider "intelligent", but what I actually meant by "intelligent" was well crafted, articulate, meaningful.

"It sure as hell doesnt require "intelligence", just listen to that alternative pop rock bullshit on MTV."

I think you are mistaking true songwriting for advertising copy set to music.:cool:
 
Sigma9 said:
THe mp3 forum is where you let others listen to your stuff. How can you comment on other people's persption of composing a song. Who's to say that one chord wont jell with another. I notice people comment on both lyrics and music there as well. I though THIS forum was geared more to the lyrical end of the song.
Click to expand...
No disrespect, but those statements are just silly. How can you comment on someone's composition???? Well how can you comment on someone's lyrics? Hey, let's just ask the Dragon to shut down this whole bbs because nobody can possibly give anyone else advice on their creations. :rolleyes:

And I doubt your week long membership makes you well qualified to tell us what the intended purpose of this forum is. Did you ask the Dragon? I've been posting on this board for over 2 years and I can't say for sure. All I know is that compositional concerns are not being well addressed in other forums and this one seems to be the place they should probably be. There is an active thread going on right now in this forum concerning cord theory that I think is just great https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=62269 . Personally I'd like to see more people starting threads of this kind and I hope the regulars in this forum don't make them feel unwelcome. Mike obviously felt a bit unwelcome, or he wouldn't have started this thread.

barefoot
 
The Songwriting Forum:

" Songwriting
Writing songs and making money? Trying to write songs and getting stuck with the lyrics or the music? Share your problems and solutions...for a song. "

That's Dragon's description of this forum. I have always tried to help other writers here if I can, as I have received so much help on the other forums. But, when I am confronted with hostility for merely commenting, I respond in kind.
In future I will refrain from any comment here.
 
Interesting debate...

I would say that, despite what the discussion label might read, I always comment in the mp3 clinic with an ear open for both production quality and songwriting/arrangement consistency. I basically add my thoughts as to what I think would make the song better, period. I do it in both that and this very forum. If I think they lyrics need work, I'll tell ya. If you're doing a weird atonal chord progression and it's not working for me or I feel the instrumentation is awkward, I'd tell you in that discussion just as quick as I'd tell you here.

Bottom line is, if you submit something for discussion, you should be prepare to be judged on all aspects mechanical or musical. Gotta have thick skin if you're gonna show everybody who you are.

stone
 
Buffalo Bob, you are very wise. I have read many very insightful posts from you.

BUT, you're wrong on this one,

Porter said it perfectly: Songwriter - One who writes music, words or both.

Bob, I'm sure you're seldom wrong. This is one of those times, so say you're sorry & we'll go on.
 
If its just for lyrics why dont they call it "Lyrics Forum"????

a song is made up of many things and people wnat to get other peoples opinions on ALL parts!!

Take the music away from a song and its no longer a song, its a poem!!!

so fdfgkdjl or whatever your name is(cant be bothered looking), your right and everyone else is wrong.
you can play songs without words but not without music(melody).


peace

Balshazza
 
dcptnsdcvd said:
is a song not a song without lyrics?
i see an awuful lot of pople being told to post their songs in the mp3 forum if the're looking for musical critique rather than lyrical critique. is it not songwriting if theres no lyrics?
the mp3 clinic talks more about distortion from file conversion and stuff like that, not how good the music of a song sounds.
Click to expand...


Interesting thread. I don't frequent the songwriting forum, but I thought I'd just point out that the MP3 Mixing Clinic usually addresses all sorts of aspects of the music posted there.

A lot of people are looking for technical feedback on recording and mixing, and there are a lot of very talented folk who give their time and expertise to help.

But almost every thread also has comments on songwriting, and arranging, and lyrics, and performance.

Distortion from file conversion hardly ever come up. Honest! :)

In my opinion music can be valid with or without lyrics. And even without melody. I had imagined the songwriting forum would be concerned with the composition of music, be it songs in the strictest sense, or non-vocal pieces. But I could be wrong... ;)

Just my two new pence worth.

Cheers

AB
 
"Buffalo Bob, you are very wise. I have read many very insightful posts from you.

BUT, you're wrong on this one,

Porter said it perfectly: Songwriter - One who writes music, words or both.

Bob, I'm sure you're seldom wrong. This is one of those times, so say you're sorry & we'll go on."


You can call a cat a dog, but he's still not gonna bark. If you check ASCAP or BMI's (to which I belong) websites, you will find an astonishing thing. They actually consider "Composers" and "Songwriters" as separate entities. If you check with The Drama Guild, you will find that they consider "Lyricists" a separate entity. Go figure.
If the three major licensing agencies consider these disciplines separate, I am inclined to agree. The perception that someone who writes music, per se, is a "songwriter" is a misnomer. Many of the greatest composers couldn't write a lick of lyric, and there have been many lyricists who couldn't whistle a tune.
It may seem like splitting hairs, but as one who has been a "songwriter" for thirty-five years, and worked to improve the craft of marrying words to music, I'm a bit prejudiced.

"Bob, I'm sure you're seldom wrong."

Obviously, you've never spoken with my wife!:D
 
if i may get everyone to stand back and reflect on this whole post......

this post is a perfect example of what i am talking about.
how many people in here are bothered by the fact that in the "songwriting" forum there are questions asked regarding composition?????
everyone raising their hand, take a hike. you are obviously NOT here to discuss music. your here to talk a whole lot without saying much and argue rather than offer input.
i didn;t mean to sound mad or disrespectful. but it seems to me that if you are here for the right reasons, then where the questions are posted would make no damn diffrence. you'd be more intrested in answering the question and giving feedback than telling me to post in the right place.
i have a feeling i'll be seeing fewer responces to my questions by saying that. but it;s not like i get too much feedback when i post a question anyway so, what the hell....
i posted this in regards to one of my previous posts in this forum asking for critique on a song i had written. the only responces i got were one person telling me what they thought, followed by someone telling me to post in the mp3 clinic and not saying a damn thing about my song.
if anyone would like to prove that they are here for the questions rather than the argument of where posts belong, go critique my song and tell me, honestly what you think.
like i have said before, i would rather you all tell me the song sucks ass than get no responce at all.
the post is called "i would like you all to listen"
this post is old and i have taken 2 of the songs (that i was asking you all to listen to) off my nowhereradio site to put newer recordings up. one of the older ones is still up, it's called "Esong". it is a live one.
there is also another post of a more recent song that i have gotten NO feedback on whatsoever. the post is called "everybody listen and feeback please"
this song has lyrics. and i would love to hear critique on both the lyrics, music and "feeling" of the song.

everyone participating in this post are very intellegent people who have solid valuable opinions (you can tell by this argument were having, everyone here is damn smart) and i want your take on things. i wouldn;t have asked at all if i didn;t think so.
so please, gimme a few minutes, tell me i suck, tell me i rule, tell me something.
Mike...
 
Mike -

I listened to all three songs. Very nice work! Excellent playing, especially on "E Song". My particular favorite was "D Song" - very Celtic-sounding. You may have not received many responses because the playing is first-class, and that intimidates a lot of people.
Good luck with this - your band is very good.

Bob
 
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