Methods for multi-track recording

leavings

leavings

Member
In most of my recordings I have been laying down the instrumentation first, and then the vocals separately. The song I'm working on now, however, doesn't sound right when I do it this way. The song isn't complex rhythmically, but the vocals and guitar compliment one another in a way that isn't reproduced well when the tracks are not played simultaneously.

So, if I do want to record the tracks at the same time, should I set up different mics (one set for guitar and one for vocals) or should I try to find mic placement that picks up both in a good balance? In the second case, does anyone have any ideas or guidelines for the setup?

Thanks, Peter
 
:D

Yo Leavings: [Isn't that a song title by Babs Striesand?:p ]


Sounds to me like the guitar and voice are doing what one might hear at a night club, kind of voice leading and guitar following.

If you have a beat to this tune, should not be a problem to do the voice after the tracks are done. If it is more or less an adlib kind of thing, and you "must" do them together, get all the other tracks done that are backing.

Try doing the guitar direct into the box, [recorder] and set a level comfortable to the singer. Put a set of cans on each and see what happens.

Another balace kind of thing is to run the voice into a compressor, like an RNC and the guitar as well. Try a couple of different ways and you might strike it rich.

Enjoy,

Green Hornet:cool: :D
 
:D

Yo Leavings: [Isn't that a song title by Babs Striesand?:p ]


Sounds to me like the guitar and voice are doing what one might hear at a night club, kind of voice leading and guitar following.

If you have a beat to this tune, should not be a problem to do the voice after the tracks are done. If it is more or less an adlib kind of thing, and you "must" do them together, get all the other tracks done that are backing.

Try doing the guitar direct into the box, [recorder] and set a level comfortable to the singer. Put a set of cans on each and see what happens.

Another balace kind of thing is to run the voice into a compressor, like an RNC and the guitar as well. Try a couple of different ways and you might strike it rich.

Enjoy,

Green Hornet:cool: :D :D
 
You didn't mention if the song is to have percussion (drum kit, hand drum, shaker etc). If it does, I would definitely lay those tracks first and have the guitar/vox play on that. Simply because it is very difficult to lay percussion on top of guitars. At least play to a click track.

As far as tracking guitar and vocals at the same time, there is no rule about whether you 'should' or 'shouldn't'. It is usually easier and cleaner to track individually as you will get better seperation, making punch-ins, retakes and mixing easier. But if you need to track at the same time, I would probably use a mic on the vox, one on the guitar, and maybe even one about 5 feet away to pick them both up with some room sound to blend for ambience. As for position, If you are using cardioid pattern mics, beware of the directionality of the mic and point the vocal mic up to the vocalist to reject as much guitar as possible. Close micing the guitar may help reject some of the vox but beware that the closer you get to the guitar, the more the low end will be exaggerated.

An even better method (if possible) is to use 2 mics with figure 8 pattern. Because they offer better 90 degree sound rejection, point the vox mix so that it is 90 degrees to the guitar, and the guitar so that it is 90 degrees to the vox. This way you will get maxmum isolation. Hope this makes sense.
 
Sorry I didn't specify the setup,

This tune will have just acoustic and vocals, with an electric solo to be recorded later by a friend elsewhere. I'm not sure what the figure 8 pattern is, but I assume you just mean that the shape of the covered area looks like a figure 8, so that would put the mics back to back. Right?
 
Every microphone has what is called a polar pattern. It determines that direction the microphone picks up its sound from. Most commmonly used mics have what is called a cardiod pattern which picks up noise in front and as you move around the back of the mic, rejects noise. (cardio means heart, the shape of this patttern looks like a heart therefore cardioid) Other patterns include omni (mic picks up sound equally from all around the mic), figure-eight (the pattern looks like an eight where noise is picked up in the front and rear equally but rejected on the sides) and there are other patterns as well. It would make sense if you see diagrams of the patterns. Anyway, figure eight picks up sound in front and behind, but has the best sound rejection from the sides. That is why I said to use it because it would reject more sound if placed appropriately. But I assume you don't have a mic capable of figure eight, so disregard that part of what I said earlier.

I also assumed you (one person) was singing and playing at the same time. If it is two seperate people, you whould have an easier time gaining seperation. Then again all I am saying may be more confusing than helpful, if so disregard and do the best you can.
 
Interesting...

Just to jump in on this 'figure of eight' thing. Why would you want to reject noise from the sides, but accept sound from the rear? Why not just accept sound from the 'front' pointed at the instrument or voice in question? (Especialy if your room is just a standard 'house' room, not a proper recording studio?)

I genuinely don't understand this, so would appreciate advice. My mic has three settings, a circle, a figure of eight and a heart. What are the crcumstances i would use each one?

Thanks.
 
Great question glynb.

I was assuming that the vocal and guitar would be played by the same person at the same time.

This being the case. If you look at a cardioid pattern and a figure-eight pattern, the figure-eight has its greatest rejection at 90 and 270 degrees from front, while cardioid has its greatest rejection at 180 degrees (and virtually no rejection at 90 and 108 degrees). If you are trying to isolate your guitar signal from your vocal signal as much as possible, you can take 2 figure-eight mics and position them toward the respective instruments with the greatest rejection points being pionted at the opposing source. This way you will get greater isolation. The room doesn't typically play as much into the sccenario, but if it does, try hanging a blanket or moving from a wall to get a better room sound. I find that room sound is much easier to deal with than trying to overcome phase and mud issues due to excessive bleed.

My whole point was one technique you could use to help isolate the two signals.

I hope that made sense.
 
Re: Interesting...

glynb said:

My mic has three settings, a circle, a figure of eight and a heart. What are the crcumstances i would use each one?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't really address this question. The three settings an your mic determine where the mic will pick up and reject noise when put on those respective patterns. I imagine you already knew that though) The goal is to understand charicteristics of each pattern and use them to the fullest based on your circumstances.

The circle (omni-directional) picks up sound evenly from all directions. This may be a good choise if you are recording mult. vocalists at once. (position them all around the mic) Or if you wanted to deliberately pick up room sound. Also note in this pattern you almost completely eliminate proximity effect, which gives this pattern a multitude of other uses.

The figure-eight (bi-directional), we have already discussed. Rejects noise from sides.

The 'heart' (uni-directional) or cardioid (cardio meaning heart) can be used for picking up a source from one direction while rejecting from behind. This typically eliminates room sound more than the others, and typically reduces bleed in general, beter than the others.

This is very general, and there are unlimited uses for each pattern and mic. But as said before, once you get to know the characteristics of the particular mic, you will know better what to do when situations arise.

Hope there was something helpful in there.

-starch-
 
thanks

Thanks very much for explaining that.

For voice I shall try using the 'heart' setting in future for vocals as i assume it gives the maximum 'proxomity' effect, which i take it to be more 'breathy vocals, licking of lips and all that good close in stuff?

YUp to now i have been using the 'circle' setting for a single vocal which appears to have been the wrong choice dammit!

Ah well, live and learn.

Still not really sure why I'd want to use the figure of eight pattern as you lost me a bit with the degrees, but i think in a nutshell it picks up front and rear but not sides, and that's all I really need to know and can't see myself using it as i record alone.

Look forward to trying out the heart shape this evening!
 
Let me clarify again,

I am playing the acoustic guitar and singing. I can do those at the same time or at separate times. Turns out that in the last few days I was able to get a guitar track down that I was really happy with. Still, thanks for the info about mics.

I need to get a good omni-directional, can anybody recommend one?
 
Actually, 'proximity effect' has to do with a greater low-end frequency response the closer the mic is to the source. Try it out, when the mic is in cardioid (the 'heart' shape) speak as you gradually move closer to the mic. You should hear a fairly dramatic low-end boost as you get close to the mic. Now if you put the mic in omni, you should notice much less low-end boost as you get closer to the mic. This is proximity.

As for a good omni mic, there are a lot of them out there. Do some homework, and keep asking on these forums as the guys here seem to have a lot of good insight. Note also that saying you are looking for a good omni mic is like saying you are looking for a good car. Its a little ambiguous as different mics have different strengths and weaknesses. Keep asking the great questions though as that's the whole point of this thing.

Good luck!
 
"Actually, 'proximity effect' has to do with a greater low-end frequency response the closer the mic is to the source. Try it out, when the mic is in cardioid (the 'heart' shape) speak as you gradually move closer to the mic. You should hear a fairly dramatic low-end boost as you get close to the mic. Now if you put the mic in omni, you should notice much less low-end boost as you get closer to the mic. This is proximity."

Hmmm, this is the opposite of what I thought. By 'proxomity' I thought was meant the higher frequencies associated with breath, you know like when you hear a singer on the radio and they sound like they are whispering in your ear, like real close. I assumed that was proximity, inclreased 'sss' sounds and 'hhhh' sounds is the best way i can describe it. I noticed I got more of these (IMO desireable) effects when going in close on the mic. I've always thought that low end frequencies are not that desireable for the human voice as it tends to 'muddy' the mix and get mixed in with bass and guitar etc. and that high end frequencies are what you'd be afyter for a singer to sound clear. But maybe I'm wrong on that score?

Or is that that close in you get more of ALL frequencies and then can EQ the voice as you choose afterwards (I would choose to take out some of the lows for my voice)?
 
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