Subtractive eq

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Lomas

New member
So it's recommended to use subtractive EQing rather than boosting frequencies. Would it then be better to record an acoustic guitar with too much bass and then use subtractive EQ on it than the other way around?

This sounds stupid I know, of course I should just record the guitar right directlym, but I'm still so bad att all this that it would feel better to know if I should lean towards a bassier sound rather than a thinner one.

I still have absolutely no idea how to get the guitar to fit with drums and bass and I feel like I'm in the dark. It's getting to be very energy draining to record the guitar part well (as far as playing goes) only to find it's impossible to use the track because of the sound.

I read up on this as I go but it's also hard to translate everything into my actual situation, my room and my microphones.

Oh and to add, I kind of want to sometimes have not perfect tracks for the purpose of learning so it's not like I aim to have badly recorded tracks when I want a song recorded.
 
Lomas said:
So it's recommended to use subtractive EQing rather than boosting frequencies. Would it then be better to record an acoustic guitar with too much bass and then use subtractive EQ on it than the other way around?

This sounds stupid I know, of course I should just record the guitar right directlym, but I'm still so bad att all this that it would feel better to know if I should lean towards a bassier sound rather than a thinner one.

I still have absolutely no idea how to get the guitar to fit with drums and bass and I feel like I'm in the dark. It's getting to be very energy draining to record the guitar part well (as far as playing goes) only to find it's impossible to use the track because of the sound.

I read up on this as I go but it's also hard to translate everything into my actual situation, my room and my microphones.

Oh and to add, I kind of want to sometimes have not perfect tracks for the purpose of learning so it's not like I aim to have badly recorded tracks when I want a song recorded.
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It all comes down to experience. It also depends on what other instruments are present in the mix. When I record acoustic guitar in a mix with lots of other instruments I tend to leave it on the thinner side so it doesn't get as muddy in there.

If you have no choice but to record either bassier or thin (though it is best to just try and get it right with mic'ing) I'd go for the bassier side then cut the lower freqs out. It's better than recording thin then trying to boost the bassiness back in.

There's a plethora of ways to record acoustic. I use a LDC (as thats all I have in the way of condensors) pointed at about the 14th/15th fret. Alot of articles say aim for the 12th but I find that gives you a sound thats a little too thin.
 
Yea I've heard that thinner is usually needed in mixes with other stuff, and it does make sense. But then when I try bass, guitar and drums and add a guitar it's thin but in a bad way. Like it's almost not there and when you do actually hear it, it's so separated from the rest. That's without any effects though so I don't know how good you can expect it to sit without doing anything to it. Like compression etc.
 
Lomas said:
Yea I've heard that thinner is usually needed in mixes with other stuff, and it does make sense. But then when I try bass, guitar and drums and add a guitar it's thin but in a bad way. Like it's almost not there and when you do actually hear it, it's so separated from the rest. That's without any effects though so I don't know how good you can expect it to sit without doing anything to it. Like compression etc.
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Well compression will make it 'sit' a bit tighter as you won't get volume fluctuations but if it sounds like it's very salient you might be doing something wrong.

My suggestion is to try making it quite bassy (ie. aim the mic more towards the soundhole). See how that sounds. Now go and point the mic up at the 12th fret or so. See how that sounds.

Now try and find a decent middleground where it's not too overpowering/thin and leave it at that.

You can also try doubletracking it and using reverb/choruses etc but it should sit reasonably well in the mix hot off the mic.
 
Lomas said:
Yea I've heard that thinner is usually needed in mixes with other stuff, and it does make sense. [B]But then when I try bass, guitar and drums and add a guitar it's thin[/B] but in a bad way. Like it's almost not there and when you do actually hear it, it's so separated from the rest. That's without any effects though so I don't know how good you can expect it to sit without doing anything to it. Like compression etc.
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Are you cutting frequencies on all the tracks?? Sounds like more problems than just the guitar fitting. For acoustic guitars, I wouldn't record it with any bass. but that's just me. on the bass, cut with a almost totally sharp Q at around 150-200Hz and depending on your kick drum, cut some out the bass that's offending the kick. , on the acoustic guitar, I tend to hi pass (cut everything under 100-120Hz) So now when you look at it, it'll be basically acoustic guitar being heard, without being buried within' the mix by the bass & kick drum. Also, now you don't need to turn up the guitar, or bass, so that you can hear it. Also, some cleaver panning will help.
 
Well I'm sure that's part of the problem too. I bought a bass just yesterday so I have absolutely no experience in recording or mixing it. It's recorded directly and I just tried to see what it sounded like.

About the guitar, what I've noticed before is that as soon as I want more things in the mix the guitar always ends up bringing the overall sound down. I love songs with acoustic guitars so it's pretty annoying that I can't seem to make it fit with the rest of the instruments.

I get what I would call a bright sound on it but it doesn't seem to make it find it's own space as much as it just makes it very weak.

And like you say, it shouldn't be sounding THAT bad even without compression and effects. I mean sometimes I've just lucked out and recorded a track that makes sense and then it's easy to tell from just changing levels if it's gonna work. Problem is I've got a bad room and I've moved around a lot so I haven't really had the chance to get to learn what the room does to things either.

I really apreciate the help you guys offer though!
 
so what is your room and mic situation? this is alot to do with what your getting cos if you room and mic situation is good you wont have to mess about so much afterwards,are you using a pre-amp?what kind of mic?etc.
 
Oh I'm using cheap stuff!

sm57 and a behringer mixer :) I have a A-51 too but it just picks up too much noise from the room. And I use cubase.

The room is...maybe 2 meters X 3-4 meters. No treatment since it's also our "office". Pretty cold and hard sounding room. So I'm not expecting a lot. But like I've said I've stumbled upon better takes by accident and although it's far from perfect it's a lot better than what I know how to get right now.


The thing is, I really wanna learn, so I've said to myself that I won't upgrade until I know how to get as good results as I can get with the equipment I've got. And when I have access to a room that will sound a bit better.
I'd hate to put some serious money into this thinking that the equipment will do the work for me, you know?

Anyway, I'm perfectly ok with not getting crystal clear sound and all that, but as it is know I'm fumbling around so bad that I just know it's me, not the equipment.
 
the 57 usually gives a really dark tone to an acoustic guitar. the best use of mic on an acoustic is the condenser. you said it picked up too much, well that works in your favour, because you need it to pick up the fine character and finesse of the acoustic guitar. find a way to kill all the background noise as much as possible because those condensors get sensitive. then find a nice mic position. remember that the sound takes a bit of distance to form fully, experiment first with close up, then check what it sounds like a foot back then keep going back until you get a distance that sounds nice. 1 1/2 to 3 feet might work in your favour here.

about killing the sound, if its too echo and boomey in the room that you are in (you said it was a cold office) line some of the walls and the floors with blankets to deaden it a bit, it wont do much but its a start.

when mixing, the acoustic guitar sounds best in its mid to high range, keep that in mind and you cant really go wrong. good luck
 
Yeah I've tried using the condenser so many times but there's so much noise from the computer (to start with). And with the 57 I need to get close.

I'm panning it to the side right now. I mean I'm still just testing so it's not really a song, just a 10 second thing.
 
You're learning one of recording's most important lessons; tracks that aren't recorded well are a bastard to mix. Learning how to use eq and all of that is very important but it's not half as important as learning to capture your sources well.

You really need to concentrate on getting a good sounding, clean guitar track to work with. Get away from the computer (or get the computer away from you) and use a condensor to capture an accurate picture of the guitar. If you spend some time positioning the mic then you shouldn't need to use any eq to get the guitar sounding good. Of course you might well need eq to get it to sit with every thing else at mixdown but if it's well recorded and sounds good from the start this will be much easier and you'll find it generally needs much less tinkering.
 
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Thanks. I'll run a cable out of the room and see what I can do!

This might be OT but would you say that condenser is always better even if the guitar is gonna be in a full mix, and maybe even two of them? I have this idea that guitar recorded with condenser sounds bigger, but maybe I'm wrong?
 
Kevin DeSchwazi said:
You really need to concentrate on getting a good sounding, clean guitar track to work with... Of course you might well need eq to get it to sit with every thing else at mixdown but if it's well recorded and sounds good from the start this will be much easier and you'll find it generally needs much less tinkering.
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Agreed.

Get it right at the source and it will end up sounding better.
 
Lomas said:
Thanks. I'll run a cable out of the room and see what I can do!

This might be OT but would you say that condenser is always better even if the guitar is gonna be in a full mix, and maybe even two of them? I have this idea that guitar recorded with condenser sounds bigger, but maybe I'm wrong?
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I don't know about 'bigger', certainly more detailed. Stereo recording (particularly spaced pair) will widen the image quite a bit so i guess that's the same thing as bigger, of course you can record in stereo with dynamic mics though. A rule of thumb is that in a sparse mix where the guitar is the main instrument you'll record stereo, when it's part of a fuller mix you'll record in mono. As usual though, whatever works....

I'm not going to say you should never record acoustic guitar with a dynamic mic but I've never personally been able to get satisfactory results myself.

BTW I shifted my computer out of my recording room about a year ago, I had to buy quite a few cables and USB and firewire repeaters etc. but I'm really glad I did it now.
 
Yup, I'll see what I can do :)

It's hard to change rooms though 'cause I'm in an apartment, and my girlfriend might not like me occupying a tracking room!
 
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