RP-5 + subwoofer
- Thread starter jndietz
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Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Unless you're mixing 5.1 surround tracks for movies, I prefer full-range speakers rather than small speakers with a sub. Less chance for peaks and nulls around the crossover point due to wave interference in the air from multiple source locations.
--Ethan
--Ethan
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
The way I see it, a subwoofer is necessary under three seperate conditions:
- If you are mixing for 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound or for gaming, and you need that .1 channel to mix to.
- If you are mixing for genres such as techno, dance, etc. where the sub is really where it's all at.
- If your stereo monitors are fairly lacking in low-frequency response to begin with.
It's VERY important IMHO to note that there are as many different flavors of subwoofers as there are standard monitors:
Some are made to act best in that third situation; their frequency response and crossover design is more that of a quality woofer than as a true subwoofer, and they match well with smaller more lightweight monitors, actiing as a proxy woofer to smoothly extend the overall response of the monitoring system further into the bass. This is probably the kind of subwoofer you're looking for to go with your current RP5s.
Then there are the true subwoofers, usually kicking more power and with response and crossover characteristics designed not to match with an anemic main monitor, but rather to assume your mains can handle themselves pretty well down low, but you need something to handle the true subsonics that endanger your wife's china. These are ususally best used in larger room and/or with main monitors whose woofers don't really need any help delivering bass on their own.
G.
- If you are mixing for 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound or for gaming, and you need that .1 channel to mix to.
- If you are mixing for genres such as techno, dance, etc. where the sub is really where it's all at.
- If your stereo monitors are fairly lacking in low-frequency response to begin with.
It's VERY important IMHO to note that there are as many different flavors of subwoofers as there are standard monitors:
Some are made to act best in that third situation; their frequency response and crossover design is more that of a quality woofer than as a true subwoofer, and they match well with smaller more lightweight monitors, actiing as a proxy woofer to smoothly extend the overall response of the monitoring system further into the bass. This is probably the kind of subwoofer you're looking for to go with your current RP5s.
Then there are the true subwoofers, usually kicking more power and with response and crossover characteristics designed not to match with an anemic main monitor, but rather to assume your mains can handle themselves pretty well down low, but you need something to handle the true subsonics that endanger your wife's china. These are ususally best used in larger room and/or with main monitors whose woofers don't really need any help delivering bass on their own.
G.
joeym
New member
My advice is to try one out and see if it helps you. I quite like using mine and after the initial problems with my wife's china (sorry, Greg!), I have now set it in a decent way, so that the bass sounds like it's coming out of the main monitors. Like Ethan said, it#ds the cross-over point that matters. And listening to the mixes on other systems helps you to set it better.
Cheers
Joe
Cheers
Joe
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I guess my question in response is, "Why are you asking?"
Is there a problem with your current mixes for which you believe the answer might be a subwoofer, or is this an inquiry about a solution in search of a problem? If you are having a problem, the real solution might be elsewhere, but the only way to analyze that is to analyze the problem itself, not just talk about one possible solution. And if you are not having a problem, then don't lose any sleep over it and move on to the next subject
.Can perfectly good mixes be made on only RP-5s? Sure, in a good enough sounding room and by a practiced engineer who has learned to translate them well enough. If perfectly good mixes can be made on Auratones, they can be made on RP-5s.
Can you make good mixes on them in your room and with your current skill level? No one can answer that but you. But I can say this: if the answer is "No", buying a subwoofer is probably not the best solution.
G.
I guess my question in response is, "Why are you asking?"
Is there a problem with your current mixes for which you believe the answer might be a subwoofer, or is this an inquiry about a solution in search of a problem? If you are having a problem, the real solution might be elsewhere, but the only way to analyze that is to analyze the problem itself, not just talk about one possible solution. And if you are not having a problem, then don't lose any sleep over it and move on to the next subject
Can perfectly good mixes be made on only RP-5s? Sure, in a good enough sounding room and by a practiced engineer who has learned to translate them well enough. If perfectly good mixes can be made on Auratones, they can be made on RP-5s.
Can you make good mixes on them in your room and with your current skill level? No one can answer that but you. But I can say this: if the answer is "No", buying a subwoofer is probably not the best solution.
G.
Well, I listened to a mix of mine on a system with a subwoofer and it was just unbelieveably booming. It sounded wonderful in my headphones (which is all I have right now), but not so great on this other system. Thats why I'm asking.
I guess I'll just have to find out if they'll make "good mixes".
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
And *that* is exactly why I asked what I did. There's all sotrs of things that could be happening here, the first of which is that it's very difficult to get headphone mixes to translate, and - unless you have headphones that cost more than the RP-5s - will rarely translate evenly. We may save you money on a subwoofer yet...
Until you get the RP-5s, try this: Put a high-pass filter set to about 70Hz (give or take) on all your tracks except bass, kick and anything else that may have somethig important happening down low. Do this for both your headphone and RP-5 mixes. And on the phones only try a mix where the bass sounds a little weaker than you'd like it; it may sound better on a live system that way.
Once you get the RP-5s, play with them a while. Set up your system and your room properly, try to make sure that your room isn't messing up your bass response too badly (there's plenty of info on room acoustics on this BBS if you search around a bit.) Try some test mixes out. If you find - and you just might - that the RP-5s just aren't delivering the bass you need to get a good mix, *then* you can add a decent matching sub to the system. But if it turns out your mixes seem to work OK for you, or that you just need a little practice with the new speakers, you've saved yourself a little dough that'll help pay for the $5/gal gasoline that we'll have by then
IMHO, YMMV, My name is Joe Politician, and I approved this message.
G.
I own a pair of RP-5's that I just bought about 2 months ago. I also used to mix on headphones because that was all I had. I used to get a really boomy mix on every other system but now mixing with the RP-5's has really helped to mellow out the sound. I have noticed that once in a great while I will find some really deep kick drums (mostly Hip-Hop) and such that hit a little lower than the RP-5's are able to accurately reproduce but it's not too often. I definitely think you will enjoy the RP-5's if you go that route. Good luck.
CoolCat
Well-known member
i'm embarrassed to say how long i made boomy mixes with headphones and ears ringing after 18hrs of frkn ignorant HR! damn
monitors are the way. I do notice however the whole monitoring thing is so different when your in another room than the band using only the monitors.
mic placement is more noticeable etc..and the mix is easier/better the tracking better.
most the time its just me and the instrument and noise is in the same room as the monitors and its fhkd up. really...if using a mic of course the monitors will feedback in the same room.
Subs....I'm pro sub...er,,,,,subs.. for play back usage.
but so far my mixes seem to be a bit better with only the monitors no subs?
I currently have two subs, one on each side because I am a speaker addict. Its sounds great for just playing music, but haven't really had time to do bass traps and measurements and all that again....I think I enjoy it as much as recording at times. the room and the measuring can be a fun run for awhile.
the bass management is the challenge.... the more bass, the more the challenge I guess. But whats wrong with trying to get a full 20-20K!?
monitors are the way. I do notice however the whole monitoring thing is so different when your in another room than the band using only the monitors.
mic placement is more noticeable etc..and the mix is easier/better the tracking better.
most the time its just me and the instrument and noise is in the same room as the monitors and its fhkd up. really...if using a mic of course the monitors will feedback in the same room.
Subs....I'm pro sub...er,,,,,subs.. for play back usage.
but so far my mixes seem to be a bit better with only the monitors no subs?
I currently have two subs, one on each side because I am a speaker addict. Its sounds great for just playing music, but haven't really had time to do bass traps and measurements and all that again....I think I enjoy it as much as recording at times. the room and the measuring can be a fun run for awhile.
the bass management is the challenge.... the more bass, the more the challenge I guess. But whats wrong with trying to get a full 20-20K!?
rockdude326
New member
I may be resurrecting this post from the grave, but I figure this would be an appropriate place to voice my concerns/questions.
Basically, I'm figuring if I'm going to invest in a monitor system, I want to be able to hear, within reason, just about any frequency producable by voices or musical instruments that I record. Some questions I have:
- Say you record a five string bass - I'm pretty sure the low B of a five string is around 30Hz. Now, knowing that there are also formants and other harmonic frequencies that occur along with the low B, would you still be able to discern a low B note with any quality at all if your subwoofer goes down to only, say, 40hz? Regardless, I'm sure it would make a dramatic difference in the sound, right?
- Also, when considering monitors, do you guys usually match brands for the sake of having the same structural design and frequency compatibility? Seeing as there are some ways certain speakers are produced "differently" to set them apart and improve them in certain areas (for instance a frontal port instead of a rear port in some KRK monitors), wouldn't it make sense to buy a sub of the same brand to sort of be consistent with the sound?
Basically, I'm figuring if I'm going to invest in a monitor system, I want to be able to hear, within reason, just about any frequency producable by voices or musical instruments that I record. Some questions I have:
- Say you record a five string bass - I'm pretty sure the low B of a five string is around 30Hz. Now, knowing that there are also formants and other harmonic frequencies that occur along with the low B, would you still be able to discern a low B note with any quality at all if your subwoofer goes down to only, say, 40hz? Regardless, I'm sure it would make a dramatic difference in the sound, right?
- Also, when considering monitors, do you guys usually match brands for the sake of having the same structural design and frequency compatibility? Seeing as there are some ways certain speakers are produced "differently" to set them apart and improve them in certain areas (for instance a frontal port instead of a rear port in some KRK monitors), wouldn't it make sense to buy a sub of the same brand to sort of be consistent with the sound?
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
If your system can do a good job of reproducing 60Hz, you'll probably hear much of it. Electric guitars tent to emit strongest at the first overtone rather than the fundamental. Farview or someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd think the same thing is true of electric bass guitar.
Often brands make their subwoofers purposely to match their nearfields. That doesn't of necessity mean that is the best sub for the job, but it certainly makes sense to check it out. Also, there are some brands that make more than one nearfield and more than one subwoofer, any given combination of which is not necessarily the best match.
For more on this take of matching subs to monitors and sub selection in general, check out this article.
G.
CIRO
Eu mesmo
Would be nice to read something (I don´t see nothing in the web)about the "bonus" sub/low frequencies that a room mode which is lowest than the monitors "flat" measured response add to the system.
Mine are measured +/-3db 58Hz/20k and in the end I´m with a good +/-5db response deviation (room is treated) from 47 to 300 hz (lowest -Lenght mode- is 51hz).Don´t know if I´m living an Illusion with this extra (for free) sub frequencies.All seems really clean and real (altough obviously not extremelly sub low).
Many people think that need a sub ,they have in mind the "boooom", not the flat response.They should focus on strong peaks and nulls and ringing on frequencies like 60hz and above (where most part of music happens)
I´m not saying my system is perfect or arguing against a sub (and I´m planning a 8" monitor), but every time I thought I needed a subwoofer, I made 1 or 2 more pair of bass traps and the bass I was searching for was "there".
Ciro
Mine are measured +/-3db 58Hz/20k and in the end I´m with a good +/-5db response deviation (room is treated) from 47 to 300 hz (lowest -Lenght mode- is 51hz).Don´t know if I´m living an Illusion with this extra (for free) sub frequencies.All seems really clean and real (altough obviously not extremelly sub low).
Many people think that need a sub ,they have in mind the "boooom", not the flat response.They should focus on strong peaks and nulls and ringing on frequencies like 60hz and above (where most part of music happens)
I´m not saying my system is perfect or arguing against a sub (and I´m planning a 8" monitor), but every time I thought I needed a subwoofer, I made 1 or 2 more pair of bass traps and the bass I was searching for was "there".
Ciro
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Seafroggys
Well-known member
Yeah basses are strongest on the first fundamental, which is why I usually carve out the 150-200 hz range on my other lower instrumetns to allow the bass guitar to cut through.
Which means a B0 would be strongest around 60 hz. Urg, I don't know why bassist insist on playing so god damn low, I rarely go below A1 in my compositions. 60 hz would just interfere with bass drum way too much, and it lower than my hi-pass is set to usually.
Which means a B0 would be strongest around 60 hz. Urg, I don't know why bassist insist on playing so god damn low, I rarely go below A1 in my compositions. 60 hz would just interfere with bass drum way too much, and it lower than my hi-pass is set to usually.
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Yes, this true for electric basses too. The last time I tested this with an FFT analyzer, the 2nd harmonic was about 12 dB louder than the fundamental. This was with my Fender Precision Bass plucked with a finger over the bridge. If you pluck closer to the 12th fret you'll get more fundamental.
Even if the fundamental is removed entirely you still perceive the note at its correct pitch. Amazing but true. As a broad generalization, pitch is perceived mainly by the relation of the harmonics to each other, and much less so by the fundamental's level.
--Ethan