Miked/DI'd Bass

P

pjb5015

New member
So it seems that the best way to record bass guitar is by miking your cab AND recording direct simultaneously, thus giving you more options to manipulate these two separate channels during mixing. Now that I have my bass tracks recorded, does anyone have some tips as to how I should process these two similar but different tracks? If I had to guess, I would assume that it would probably be smartest to let the miked track take most of the low end, while using the direct track for more of the "punchiness" of the bass. Is there anything I should watch out for regarding phasing between these two tracks? What about compression? Should they be compressed the same? Differently? I know a lot of people will say, "Do what sounds good", but I am just looking to see if there is any general consensus or tips out there. Thanks for the help, and sorry if this was specifically covered elsewhere.

P.S. Anyone know why I have these red dots for my "reputation"? I didn't think I did anything wrong...:confused:
 
pjb5015 said:
So it seems that the best way to record bass guitar is by miking your cab AND recording direct simultaneously, thus giving you more options to manipulate these two separate channels during mixing. Now that I have my bass tracks recorded, does anyone have some tips as to how I should process these two similar but different tracks? If I had to guess, I would assume that it would probably be smartest to let the miked track take most of the low end, while using the direct track for more of the "punchiness" of the bass. Is there anything I should watch out for regarding phasing between these two tracks? What about compression? Should they be compressed the same? Differently? I know a lot of people will say, "Do what sounds good", but I am just looking to see if there is any general consensus or tips out there. Thanks for the help, and sorry if this was specifically covered elsewhere.

P.S. Anyone know why I have these red dots for my "reputation"? I didn't think I did anything wrong...:confused:
Click to expand...

actually i would do the opposite...

Low Bass from the DI and mids and low mids from the mic'd track.

depending on how it was played and the genre of music their are hundreds of options with bass...

how does the bass sound? consistent? jumpy (volume-wise)? does it get lost in the mix? do you have other instruments in the mix? what kind of bass sound are you going for? do you have any Bass amp sim plug-ins?

once you've answered a couple of these questions i can give you some more specific advise :D
 
Well, the genre of music is kind of a folk rock thing (The Band, Neil Young, Dylan). I like a nice and warm bass tone, without much treble (I hate the Flea tone, no offense to him), but I want it to still have some presence. On this track, the bass is fingered (no pick) up by the neck. The bass playing is very consistent, and not jumpy at all. On my monitors it is clearly audible in the mix, but on smaller speakers without any low-end, it doesn't come through hardly at all. Other instruments in the mix are drumset, acoustic guitar, piano, clean electric guitar, and vocals. Finally, I don't have any bass amp-sims or plug-ins. Thanks already for what you've helped with thus far!
 
pjb5015 said:
Well, the genre of music is kind of a folk rock thing (The Band, Neil Young, Dylan). I like a nice and warm bass tone, without much treble (I hate the Flea tone, no offense to him), but I want it to still have some presence. On this track, the bass is fingered (no pick) up by the neck. The bass playing is very consistent, and not jumpy at all. On my monitors it is clearly audible in the mix, but on smaller speakers without any low-end, it doesn't come through hardly at all. Other instruments in the mix are drumset, acoustic guitar, piano, clean electric guitar, and vocals. Finally, I don't have any bass amp-sims or plug-ins. Thanks already for what you've helped with thus far!
Click to expand...

Ok...

first things first, more often than not your monitors will not give you the best representation of your mix, in this case it sounds like they are heavy in the low mids and bass which would cause you to mix the bass lower than it actually needs to be on other play back systems...

Or (as was my case many times)

You could just have everything else in your mix up too high... turn down the other instruments until the bass is clear on your "small speakers" bounces. What you could also do is tear your mix down and start over, put the bass @ unity and mix everything else to it, making sure nothing steps on it.

Or

It could be that it just needs to "cut" more at the right frequencies...

Are you familiar with the parametric sweep?

Take a parametric EQ and set a super high Q (10-12) and set a super high level (~10 -12 db) and sweep the center frequency of that EQ band.

Sweep high and low, you'll notice that certain frequencies will give you more "cut", some will give you super resonant low end and some will sound just terrible lol. Every bass and bass part is different so you have to find the right frequencies for your bass track.

Once you find a good frequency that will give you "cut" turn down the EQ to less than 6db and open the Q back up to 1-5... You’ll have to play with it and use your ear to find just the right sound.

If you find some terrible frequencies set the EQ level to -6db or more and leave the Q high. This will "carve" out "problem" areas.

On bass and most other instruments I always add a high pass filter set to remove anything below 40hz as most of the stuff down there is mudd, this will also give you slightly more headroom and "tighten" up your tracks.

Let me know how this works out for you as I’m sure you'll have more questions :D
 
I have 'mixed' feelings on micing bass cabs in small rooms, although I think it's a better avenue if you're trying to capture some mids/highs... but I'd think a good DI should get that

I say this because I think to really capture bass through an amp you need a room with some depth (like about 32' from the amp) for a room mic, otherwise close micing would seem to be heavy on the "thump"

then again I could be deranged

When I have miced and DI'd I have tended to pan the amp mix slightly to one side and the DI down the middle- If the song works better with a looser tone I use more amp, if I want a tighter bass I use more DI

anymore I wonder why I have a bass cab as I seldom use it, opting for a Bellari tube DI or a SansAmp, which seem to both do what i need I need- Bellari seems to work better for old school R&B and blues, Sans Amp for most everything else

but I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on this
 
V-amp or an amp simulator of some manufacturer is an avenue that hasn't been mentioned yet! I think that bass amp simulators work better than those designed for guitar.
I love the sound of a mic'd bass amp, And a DI'd bass is ok if you have a descent one that you can vary the tone etc. other wise it just sounds to sterile to me.







:cool:
 
themdla said:
Ok...

first things first, more often than not your monitors will not give you the best representation of your mix, in this case it sounds like they are heavy in the low mids and bass which would cause you to mix the bass lower than it actually needs to be on other play back systems...

Or (as was my case many times)

You could just have everything else in your mix up too high... turn down the other instruments until the bass is clear on your "small speakers" bounces. What you could also do is tear your mix down and start over, put the bass @ unity and mix everything else to it, making sure nothing steps on it.

Or

It could be that it just needs to "cut" more at the right frequencies...

Are you familiar with the parametric sweep?

Take a parametric EQ and set a super high Q (10-12) and set a super high level (~10 -12 db) and sweep the center frequency of that EQ band.

Sweep high and low, you'll notice that certain frequencies will give you more "cut", some will give you super resonant low end and some will sound just terrible lol. Every bass and bass part is different so you have to find the right frequencies for your bass track.

Once you find a good frequency that will give you "cut" turn down the EQ to less than 6db and open the Q back up to 1-5... You’ll have to play with it and use your ear to find just the right sound.

If you find some terrible frequencies set the EQ level to -6db or more and leave the Q high. This will "carve" out "problem" areas.

On bass and most other instruments I always add a high pass filter set to remove anything below 40hz as most of the stuff down there is mudd, this will also give you slightly more headroom and "tighten" up your tracks.

Let me know how this works out for you as I’m sure you'll have more questions :D
Click to expand...

I do have a good amount of experience doing the parametric sweep (sounds like a nerdy dance step) but I am more concerned with how I should treat it when I have two seperate tracks. I would be perfectly comfortable if I were EQing either a single track of miked bass or a single track of DI'd bass, but since I have both, should I treat them as if I only have one bass track, or should I adjust the EQ of each track to compliment the other. For example, if I boost at 250 Hz on the DI track, should I cut at those same frequencies on the Miked track? What if I boost both of them at that frequency? Basically the problem is now that I have so many options, it is more difficult to settle on one thing. Anyway, so far you have been a great help, just wondering if there are any more recommendations specifically relating to having two seperate bass tracks. Thanks for all the help!
 
pjb5015 said:
I do have a good amount of experience doing the parametric sweep (sounds like a nerdy dance step) but I am more concerned with how I should treat it when I have two seperate tracks. I would be perfectly comfortable if I were EQing either a single track of miked bass or a single track of DI'd bass, but since I have both, should I treat them as if I only have one bass track, or should I adjust the EQ of each track to compliment the other. For example, if I boost at 250 Hz on the DI track, should I cut at those same frequencies on the Miked track? What if I boost both of them at that frequency? Basically the problem is now that I have so many options, it is more difficult to settle on one thing. Anyway, so far you have been a great help, just wondering if there are any more recommendations specifically relating to having two seperate bass tracks. Thanks for all the help!
Click to expand...

you know it depends :D

normally when i have both i try to get the sound close to "right" before i EQ too much.

the Mic'd amp is going to give you all your "cut", grit, and harmonics.

to me DI bass (even with a great tube DI or some other equivelent) doesn't have quite enough mids for me... but they are always great for transient attack and solid low end.

really you should try any method you can think of....

1) EQ them both differently to compensate for one another

2) try compression on one or both

3) send them to an aux bus together with both EQ and compression on it

4) don't EQ them at all and see if you can find a good blend level-wise where you get all your mids and articulation from the Mic'd and just enough bass from the DI

it's hard to say exactly what to do with your track cuz i haven't heard it and also what i might like to do to it maybe different than what you originally envisioned tone wise.

when it comes to mixing don't be afraid to try anything and everything as you will only learn from it and you can always hit (ctrl+z). any of the combinations above could give you that "magic" sound but you'll have to find it.

mainly i think you should find the natural strengths of each track and accentuate that with EQ. One of the main trappings with EQ and plugins is trying to add too much frequency "content" that isn't there leaving the sound artificial. listen closely and try to "hear" what it needs before reaching for the plugs.

if you need the bass or any other instrument to sound a certain way it's better to find that sound while tracking than to doctor it with EQ.

not saying that's the case with you but as a general rule...
 
also, as a side note...

normally when i start to make a track "cut", whatever instrument it is, i usually have to turn it down a bit to make up for how it's becoming "pushed forward" in the mix.

too much cut and you'll have to turn it down a lot which can also be problematic...

use the force wisely and judiciously :D
 
I usually use one or the other (and most often that is the mic), but let me paraphrase a bit I read from Mixerman:

A mix of the two signals can be very useful when creating the relationship with the bass drum. Early on you decide if the bass drum or bass guitar gets the bottom. Due to phase relationships that exist between any bass DI and mic, simply adding the signals together can instantly put the bass guitar on the bottom (or free up the bottom for the drum, depending on what your phase is doing).
 
to clarify...

normally when i have both DI and Mic i run:


----------DI thru>amp>mic>interface channel 1
Bass>DI<
----------DI output>interface channel 2

so one take, two tracks, mostly in phase, maybe a few miliseconds off
 
All of the advice has been great so far. I really, truly appreciate it. Just for clarification, I know everyone talks about whether the bass guitar or bass drum should get the "bottom" end. Approximately where does the line exist that separates the bottom end from the low-mids. I know it is not concrete, but when we talk about which one gets the low end, is that from 0 - 40 Hz? 0 - 100? 0 - 200? Just trying to get an idea how much of this space we are talking about. Also, I have heard from many people to cut anything below 40 Hz on bass drum and/or bass guitar with a high pass filter. If so, does that mean that the low end doesn't really even begin until ~ 40 Hz. I'm guessing that anything from 0 - 20 Hz is almost inaudible...more likely "felt". Anyway, I know I have a lot of questions, but that's what these forums are for. Thanks in advance to anyone who helps me out.
 
pjb5015 said:
I do have a good amount of experience doing the parametric sweep
Click to expand...
"Shall we dance, dear ? Be gentle with me, for I am but a novice."
pjb5015 said:
I would be perfectly comfortable if I were EQing either a single track of miked bass or a single track of DI'd bass, but since I have both, should I treat them as if I only have one bass track
Click to expand...
Why not actually bounce them together as one track ? Sometimes, I'll record three bass tracks simultaneously, one miked, one using the line out and one going directly into my recorder. The first few times, I was surprized at each bass part sounding different. Then I'd play around for a while, combining all three till I got a sound that I wanted to keep. And I'd bounce the three into one track. You can EQ each bass track as you like and effect it with compression or however you like. I'd remove the separate tracks once I had the one bass sound, removing the temptation to indecision. But you're welcome to keep them !
 
Lot's of good advice, I agree with the above post of trying as many different ways as possible. Maybe once you have 4 or 5 sounds combos which you can't decide on, bounce them all down, go away and chill for a bit, come back and relisten. Also can help to relisten on lower end speakers/headphones to see if the bass still translates.

DI and amp blend definitely gives you more options, there will be different sweet spots on each track EQ wise so it's a case of hearing what lends itself to the track and resonates well with you. This can take some time but is worth the effort.

Well worth checking the phase relationship between the two tracks as this can make a massive difference to the overall sound. So easy to do aswell and you can get destructive phase issues from Mic'd amp and DI even on the same take as the mic'd one will have some delay but then depending on your connections and the soundcard, will always experience a bit of delay too. Always worth checking this imho.

I find sending the outputs of both and applying comp and eq can help 'glue' the sounds together, as well as slight tweaks for each individual track but might not be what you're after.

good luck
 
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