Censorship rears its ugly head...

S8-N

S8-N

..|.. Part-time Antichrist ..|..
This post is to let certain people know that I have been asked to refrain from posting "offensive" words and opinions in this forum... Apparently my use of profanity and alleged anti-female views have caused a flood of angry letters to our moderator-in-chief.
It saddens me to think that, in an age so technologically advanced that we can communicate electronically with billions of people via the internet, that people still believe that certain words can harm them.
I have been informed that young children have read my "pornographic" writings here in these posts... I wonder what business children have in a forum about home recording, and why they would be surfing this BBS when there's so much real pornography within easy reach on the 'net. I know a few kids and I think it is safe to assume that I wouldn't be able to force them to read a single post even if I had them tied to a chair in front of the monitor with their eyelids propped open with toothpicks.
I am not going to try and justify my so-called "female-bashing"... I know that my views aren't politically correct, but I am entitled to express them. I realize that this forum isn't the place to do so, but the post in question was one in which I was asked to express my "opinion".
Freedom of speech is something that I take pretty seriously... I would hate to think that what little progress that has been made toward protecting it is going to be trampled upon here today...
It's kind of ironic that one of the pioneers of PC recording, Frank Zappa, spent a chunk of his valuable time in court fighting the efforts of Tipper Gore and the PMRC who were trying to outlaw profanity and sexually explicit lyrics in music... OUTLAW them!!!
Thanks in part to him, we got by with our constitutional rights only being spat upon and not taken away. Just for the record he was also accused of woman-bashing from time to time.
I wont go into the details of Howard Stern vs the FCC or Larry Flynt versus all of Christianity... I'll just restate their philosophy: If you don't like what I have to say... don't read my posts. My name appears in bold print at the top of each one.
 
Just a note on language and interpretations (as long as it is open). I have a long standing philosophy that runs to the tune of "the power of an insult lies solely in the offended". It does not need much ellaboration but I will touch on it. I can call a man anything I chose inflamatory or otherwise. It is all the same, up to him to accept my words as truths or insult. It goes the same for more edifying statements too. One can bolster anothers confidence, but if tyhey choose not to act, it is wasted. Words are power, but only if interpreted.
 
S8N - I encourage you to do what's required to stay on this page - I like the way you learn and share, and it makes no difference to me whether the rough language is there or not - I benefit either way.

Even - taboo words carry a lot of emotional charge, especially for some people - that's the way we're conditioned, and every society shapes its population that way. It's an automatic reflex, and doesn't operate on the level of interpretation or philosophy. It's a bit like passing wind - you can talk about interpretation all you like, but there's still a bad smell. If you're into expressing yourself flatulently, don't be surprised if you get the occasional negative feedback. :)
 
I think before anyone else passes judgement or jumps to confusions, they read the exact email that I wrote to S8-N. Unfortunately, he did not reply directly to me, but took it here instead.

-------------------

Hey mon,

I may not always agree with what you say but your input is very important on the BBS! The thing is that I've been getting complaints about some of your language and now a bit of anti-woman thing...you really think all they're good for is porno? OK, maybe you hate everything, but skinny old Bonnie Raitt can outplay you and me any time. Anyway, we got some little kids on the BBS and I want it to be a place where we discuss music and recording, but not anti-anybody stuff. I do *NOT* want to kick you out at all or censor you, but I just wanted to tell you that throwing the word "f*ck" into a conversation for no good reason is not really...nice. I hope you can dig that. Thanks, Dragon
 
I don't think this is a freedom of speech issue. It's a courtesy issue. One should extend reasonable deference to the guy who
put this thing together. He's invited >1000 people he didn't know to gather and exchange information using his server. And he's asked us to keep the language limited to what can't be picked up as "obscene" by bots hired by the real enemies of free speech. And to use normal BBS ettiquette.
That's not too much to ask.
 
I couldn't agree with you more, drstawl. Where in the world did we get the idea we could say anything, anytime, anywhere we wanted and then cry "censorship" the second anyone disagrees? Thanks Dragon, you have a great site!
 
Dobro...
Your analogy comparing profanity to flatulence is the first intelligent thing I have heard this evening...
As my girlfriend will gladly testify... I fart alot.

Screw you guys... I'm going home...
S8-N
 
Thanks, Matt, but my point is that I wasn't interested in STOPPING S8-N (or anyone else) from saying things...just asking him to think about what he's saying (geez...what a concept!) and why he's saying it, and who his audience is.

I personally HATE political correctness, but the idea that women's only place in the entertainment industry is for porno (yup, that's what S8-N said in another thread) is nothing but offensive, and I suspect S8-N wrote it to be offensive. Even so, I didn't erase it, because he is entitled to his opinion.

S8-N, if you're really taking your marbles and going home the way you imply, based on perceived censorship from someone who hasn't censored you and said he wants you here, then you're acting like a baby. Maybe that's why you fart so much. Ask your girlfriend to burp you, eh?
 
One item I don't want to go unsaid: Dragon added to one of his posts last week that he would be absent from the BBS for a while because he was out of town. At this point, visiting the BBS on a daily basis, I found that it had become exactly like that high school classroom where the teacher has announced a vacation and the substitute teacher was in charge. People began using foul language, talking about things that has little to do with our purpose here; to learn more about doing our own recording at home(this was not just limited to members, some moderators were getting in on it too). Don't get me wrong, I participated in it too. I even brought it to a personal level and attacked somebody's musical creativity because his opinions differed from mine. I felt terrible afterwards.
Anyway, I, for one, am not offended by anything S8-N has posted. I actually look forward to his posts because he makes me laugh myself out of the chair sometimes. I honestly think his comments about women were made tongue in cheek. I may be wrong, but he took the time to respond to me one time via email (and I don't mean to denounce your evil reputation S8-n) but he seems to be a helluva nice person who is just (like the rest of us) trying to learn. He has a very funny way of approaching this sometimes. It is ballsy, to say the least.
And I don't mean to discredit anything else that was said, and Dragon, I don't think your email to S8-N smelled of censorship. I thought it was perfectly stated. If there are children reading these posts, or even those easily offended, then we should watch our P's and Q's. This is not a freedom of speech issue; it is a responsibility issue. Finally, I hope S8-N doesn't feel he has to leave this BBS. He has expressed himself very well in the past without offending anyone to my knowledge and without using what society deems "vulgar" language.
This is a great place for people to learn about home recording, and I would hate for it to get ugly because of some people's sensitivity and/or other's lack thereof.
Brad
 
im not offended by anything satan says , and i think hes a cool guy.. as a matter of fact , i used his " woman are only good for porno " joke several times.. hehe .. but .. posting on this bbs is not a constitutional right.. its a privilege .. dragon is nice enough to keep this site up for all of us.. we could show a little courtesy and keep it somewhat clean.. remember.. he could pull the plug at any time.. and i dont think satan is really leaving.. " screw you guys , im going home " is a funny excerpt from southpark...

- eddie -
 
This post reminds me of something my grandfather used to say... "STICKS AND SONES CAN BREAK YOUR BONES BUT WORDS CAN NEVER HARM YOU". Felt the need to reply because I noticed that although we can cry censorship and believe in "harmful words as as a mere illusion", we often get offended when we're told our words are harmful. Human Nature....

Now back to home recording...!
 
Can I say Hail S8N?
Seriously though, I am In dragons house and when in ANYONES house I show respect.
I must agree that woman bashing has nothing to do with recording but....I think somehow musicians are related to porn...And you gotta admit, some of those girls look pretty good...
If i were to say that Stevie Ray Vaughn was only good for playing guitar, would I be SRV bashing? (how stupid of an analogy is that?)
Hail Dragon, and all Hail S8N!
 
It about respect!! I live in Mpls, Mn and on a daily basis, I see and here people doing and saying thing that openly offend/hurt other people (mainly kids and seniors). The bottom line is: If you don't give respect, you don't receive it. This isn't a matter of censorship. It astounds me how desensitized we are that the average Joe can't even figure this out. Try thinking before you act! (if an 8 year old kid was in front of you, would you have said those things?) By the way S8-N, it's not the words that harm, it's the images they provoke! If this doesn't make sense to you, try eating something while listening to soemone talk about regergitation.. Now recordees and recorders alike, lets get back to what we were born to do!! (cheesy last line) Peace, Johnny
 
One more thing... rj, that's actually a very interesing topic.
"I must agree that woman bashing has nothing to do with recording but....I think somehow musicians are related to porn...And you gotta admit, some of those girls look pretty good..."
First, I've seen much better looking women in person then in porns. Even the good ones! Second, Coke had it right, "You can't beat the real thing!" Third, I think the relation goes much deeper then this. Here's a thought: I've often wondered what the ratio of musicians that have been sexualy abused verses none musicians is. I'm thinking there might be something there. Wouldn't you agree that it takes an overwhelming amount of defeat, persecution, and humiliation to occomplish the level of creativity that we all strive for? Comments please.. J
 
"If chicks want to be in the entertainment industry ...there's porno"

MTV started this trend several years ago, with the advent of rock videos... If someone is good looking... that makes them worth listening to... That makes them talented... That means that they have something worthwile to say... Lets take the latest stripper who had the ambition to blow her way through a few sugar daddies with industry ties, give her voice lessons and a makeover and drop a few million on an album and a couple of videos and you have a superstar...
Do you think Alanis Morrisette slept in her car and played small clubs for ten years to finally make it big???
If Janis Joplin was born 20 years later, she wouldn't have had a chance... She would be waiting tables at Waffle House and singing kareoke and the local tavern...
How many people out there today are ten times more talented then the latest crop of alterna-sluts but don't stand a chance of making it big cause they don't have the look... How many fat, ugly chicks are landing record deals today? Does that mean fat chicks can't sing? I've been many years in the underground music scene in America... Musicians that will never make it big and they know it... but keep on playing music cause they are driven to do so... One thing I can tell you is that talent and good looks rarely go hand in hand...(I am a fortunate exception...)
My porn related remarks are somewhat fueled by the fact that I see the music business today as more of a meat market than a talent show...
Any female musicians out there who were offended by my remarks should pay close attention to what I have just said...
Do you have the look? If the record company has to choose between you and someone with half of your talent, but looks like she just slithered out of the Victorias Secret catalog, Who do you think will land the deal???
Anyone see the point that I was going for???? Would you rather hear Courtney Love sing, or watch her strip in "The people vs. Larry Flynt"???
 
S8-N, you're bringing out an entirely different point here that wasn't entirely obvious in your original quote.

I hope you won't be bummed out totally when I say I agree with you 110%!
 
Not to downplay the Barbie descrimination that takes place within the music biz, I just want to add that it also lends its ugly head to the male side of the industry also. Not too many ugly, fat dudes out ther making it (with the exception of a few).
As an ugly fat dude, I thought I should say something.
 
Good point,
Kurt Cobain used to be a roadie for the Melvins. He struggled,got famous, got bored with it, and made his exit and the melvins are still struggling along. Why??? Just look at King Buzzo...
Speaking of Seattle... After the whole Nirvana explosion, record companies were scrambling to pick up any( and I mean ANY) angst ridden pop-rock band from the area... Yet TAD (true pioneers of grunge-been around since '88) never got any exposure. Frontman Tad Doyle is a better singer, better guitarist, and better song writer than Cobain... But happens to weigh in at 350lbs+...
But with men it is still POSSIBLE to get famous without the look... (Blues traveler, Tom Petty, Limp Bizkit) For chicks it is highly unlikely...
 
Of course, SaTaN, you feed the frenzy! It's viewpoints like yours that make women feel that they have to use there bodies to get what they want in the first place. You say,

"If chicks want to be in the entertainment industry ...there's porno"

I say, "As long as there are manipulating jerks in the business, women will continue to get used and abused!"

Do you see everything for face value, or do you actually think sometimes? I'm not trying to disrespect you, I just can't fingure out your logic..

No one made any comments about my previous post. I'm curious to see what people think.

Regardless, point taken S8-N. However, this shallow view of sexy looks takes place all over the entertainment industry. (With few exceptions..) The thing is, as long as people keep thinking like you, the labels, prod. co's, and producers will keep doing it. Plain and simple. J

[This message has been edited by freakjazz (edited 10-26-1999).]
 
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