Interesting info for Delta 1010 users...

we went over this a long time ago when we were talking about the 1010. I posted pics of my reversed phase kick drum. and i wrote maudio, never responded to that particular quirk. But also it has never made my audio sound different, if you invert the phase in some editor, isn't it essentially exactly the same. I've noticed other things as well, like the wave form not being able to be a consistent shape in respect to relative symmetry. It will never go higher then -3dB on this one channel, and it will go to 0dB on another. Just inconsistncies. BUT it sounds better then any other card out there in the price range. So i don't mind. I can't imagine what they will pull out their asses next. But i bet it will be better!
 
I listened to the mp3 and came to the conclusion that this guy is talking through something other than his mouth.

THat difference is IMPOSSIBLE.

Also, its a simple matter of switching the polarity in soundforge. Not that it affects the sound any.
 
yea, i forgot to comment on his outlandish sound file. i have posted things here with -10 and +4.... and nobody could tell the difference.
 
Hello,

I am the one who posted this webpage in order that users unaware of this phase issue (a large amount) can be educated and contact midiman.

If you feel the MP3 file is "outlandish", do the test and submit me an MP3. I will glady post it.

I have retested this all day and had the EXACT same results each and every time, as have all the others who have tested.

Further more, this is NOT a personal vendetta, a smear compaign or anything of the like.

My only concern is that Midiman correct the problem, which they still deny exists.

Of course it's "relatively" simple to correct, because you know it's there. But in a stereo monitoring system, you will most likely not discover the problem unless you test your mix in mono, which many do not. Not to mention it's not out of phase enough to correct 100%.

Thank you,

Robot

p.s. please record the files in stereo and give before and after examples in MONO. thank you.
 
http://www.geocities.com/ghostofrobotpresent/

My humble appologies,

I just listened to the mp3 and apparently one of the files was bumped in my editor.

The problem has been corrected

Again, the important thing here is MONO compatability. You Can hear the difference between an out-of-phase stereo file summed to mono.

My sincere appologies, and thank you for noting this error.

-robot

p.s. please continue to contact midiman tech support regarding this and the many other problems with the Delta 1010. problems cannot be resolved by sitting idle. thank you.
 
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tubedude said:
Damn, were your ears burning? ha!

So whats everyone think, then?
Click to expand...

Just very eager to hear if every Delta 1010 owner would at least write an email to Midiman.

You know, there isn't a darned soul on the planet who will take these people to task. You bought the hardware, now you get them to implement the features you want!

If you have ever emailed them before regarding features, and recieved the stock reply: "Very soon.", then please don't give up. Continue to email, phone, whatever you can to get these little things fixed!

How many times have they pulled drivers? This phase thing is NOTHING compared to the DC offset issue in current x.x.38 drivers, the BAD Multiclient issue, the UNSIGNED driver issue for Win2k and XP, the lack of a re-sizeable control panel, the lack of advanced virtual routing, of advanced and easily implementable in software Word Clock features (digi superclock, 256x, etc), and it goes on!

These are all things they PROMISED over a year and a half ago!

So some of you are glad with your purchase, and I am very glad for you. I do not deny it's quality, or any of the other good things about it. But let's work together to make it BETTER!

;]

-robot
 
I highly doubt on the delta 1010 which is hardware switching for -10/+4 that you can fix that without actually having them take it apart. Thats my feeling, so you might have to life with it. I don't understand your problems with it. There are very esy workarounds.

Don't record a stereo source with the L mic at -10 and the R at +4. Besides that, you should be fine. Those are the only problems i head that i could imagine fromy our mp3. This goes for the same for recording a drumkit with 6 mics all at different -10/+4. But this is the same thing as the stereo source.

You might have had phase problems to begin with. You should monitor you initial recording in mono with a test run to check for phase cancellation. Sometimes you can't hear it as well in stereo.
 
hey robot,

Did you normalise the file. I noticed that the unfixed file is much lower in volume.

Anyhow, I am thinking that Kristian is correct. You might have had problems with the phase of your mic or something.

Anyhow, my delta wordclock-in does not work. What can I do about it. A card with the same quality as the delta 1010 with the same number of inputs will cost 2-3 times as much. Midiman still has the best value out there.

What if I buy a MOTU card for the functioning wordclock? MOTU has worse problems with tech support and functionality than m-audio.

Whats more ? the folks at M-audio sent me two pci cards in two days. How amazing is that? It was supposed to be a cross ship, but I have not sent the cards back, they are sitting in a drawer. Thay did not email me or call me to ask for the expensive cards back. I am waiting for them to find a fix to the wordclock problem.

You say that this +4 -10 thing is a problem. I see it as a blessing. I dont know of any other card that can switch between the two settings on the hardware. The other cards make you go into software. THats not much help in a clutch situation
 
CyanJaguar said:
hey robot,

Did you normalise the file. I noticed that the unfixed file is much lower in volume.

Anyhow, I am thinking that Kristian is correct. You might have had problems with the phase of your mic or something.

You say that this +4 -10 thing is a problem. I see it as a blessing. I dont know of any other card that can switch between the two settings on the hardware. The other cards make you go into software. THats not much help in a clutch situation
Click to expand...

What you all fail to understand is the fact that I recorded these files with a cd player.

There were NO microphones involved. I pluged one input from my cd player into input #1 of the Delta 1010 at -10dbv, and one output from my cd player into input #2 of the Delta 1010 set to +4dbu.

I then recorded a stereo file. Then I normalized the +4dbu signal I had just recorded. Then I normalized the -10dbv to compensate any volume discrepancies.

The same thing could have been accomplished with a multitrack recorder software recording Left and Right as seperate mono tracks.

Then, I combined Demo #1 to a MONO file. It is so quiet until the last bit (intentional overlap) because the two signals combine OUT OF PHASE.

Then for Demo #2 I reversed the phase of the -10dbv track (which was then POSITIVE like the =4dbu signal) and combined again to mono. Thus, they summed together to almost double the value because they are more IN PHASE. You can hear the opposite effect in the overlap at the end of the file. It almost HALVES in volume.

I have repeated this test innumerable times with different sources and the issue is there regardless. Remember, it is NOT 100% out of phase, so a phase reversal algorithm does NOT completely solve the problem.

Now,

Regardless as whether you "see it as a blessing", I do not. Why? Because Midiman didn't tell me this before I bought it. If they had, I obviously would NOT be here telling you about it.

The fact that your Word Clock issue (which I share) goes unsolved should be enough to clue you and everyone in that Midiman does not care at all.

Typical resposes like "swap your card to a new slot", "purchase a new motherboard", "it's the sound blaster's fault", "drivers will be here soon!", "sounds like your software is the problem", etc., should PISS YOU OFF!

This behaviour will only continue as long as no one actually does anything about it.

I want to get back to work. I loose MONEY when hardware malfunctions. I need the -10dbv input to be fixed. I need fully functional drivers. I don't need false promises, false advertising, and pass-me-off-with-a-lame-excuse tech support. Hell, they ignore me now, regardless of my polite and as humble as I can be email messages.

Don't agree? That's totally cool. I'm glad you can live with your Delta 1010's faults. But as a professional, I have a business to run. I put my faith in Midiman and they continue to fail me.

Thank you for your time, and please forgive any redundancy! I really appreciate all your input! ;]

-robot
 
ahh..

thanks for clarifying your tests. And now i'm sure where you went wrong.

Recording a stereo file with L as -10 and R as +4 is EXACTLY the same as recording a drumset as i mentioned. There are sources int he cd you recorded which are stereo (reverbs, DRUMS, maybe any other instrument). When these are summed to mono they cancel phase. Your test was exactly what i said would happen with a stereo source.

This doesn't mean that its not odd that they have polarity problems. They SHOULD fix them, and yes drivers should be better. Like mine crackles when i try to paly a cd from my computer. which sucks when you are trying to listen to what you just mixed. BUT, this +4/-10 issue is NOT that big. Any source you are recording at different levels should be isolated, unless you are using all stand alone pres and one (i don't knwo why it would) is -10.

Yes, I never did recieve a response when i asked about the reversed phase. But I have for everything else.
 
Re: ahh..

It's the same with mono surces summed. In fact, what led me to this was guitar tracks recorded over the last year being funky as doom in a mix.

The test can use a sine wave from a keyboard if you like.

Yes, I use many out board preamps. Some aren't balanced, and I like to dual mic sources using both +4dbu and -10dbv. Not everything is balanced in the recording world.

No, it isn't THAT big of a deal. No, it won't burn your house down.

It's a flaw, and they should fix it. Like everything else.

They should definately mention it's existance on the support or FAQ pages of their website.

Thank you kindly,

Robot
 
robot,

I read the full procedure on your page and I now understand the problem. WHen a -10 file and a +4 file recorded with the delta 1010 are mixed, they cancel each other out because they are out of phase. Thats not good.

Ok, I know that m-audio has some issues. I totally hate having to wait 15-45 minutes for someone to pickup my call, especially since its not an 800 number. The good thing is that this has only happened once with the wordclock issues.

The best thing for m-audio to do would be to alert people to this on their website, so that users who have situations like this(very few I guess) will not have to tear their hair out trying to find the fault.

On the other hand, you agree that once one knows about this problem, it is a minor thing fixing it, and we still have to give the thumbs up to m-audio for creating such a great value in their product, because as I said before, much more expensive cards and worse sounding too have more problems than this.

I was impressed by the qualtiy of the mp3. I was proud of my little baby, which remains and will forever be one of the most important pieces in my rack.

What other problems are you having with the delta 1010. Maybe if we can get users to sign a petition, then m-audio will make their product perfect and improve tech support response, both via email and via phone.

which reminds me. Have you spoken to Jesper Andersen? He is the head tech and he will get your problem fixed asap.
 
kristian, what version drivers are you using? I was having some probs with .29 and everything was fixed when I went back to .27

I have never had the crackling prob though. Try switching to .27 and see if it gets fixed.
 
tubedude said:
Hmmmm... what to think, what to think...
Click to expand...

What to think indeed.

Thank you Cyan for the name. I do appreciate it. Thank you everyone for letting me prove I'm not "pulling something out of my *ss".

Surely Maudio is a value in today's market. Yep it sounds okay.

Other problems.... Driver related mostly.

Multiclient isn't multiclient. Even the Sblive can do better in that regard. And when I say multiclient, I mean I want to see Logic and Sound Forge play together on the same output pair. This is a professional device.

Routing sucks. I hate to say a word like "sucks" but I can't think of a better adjective. Icon based virtual routing please, and hopefully controll over apps' i/o. This would be the #1 thing to draw me to a competitor today, if I were in the market.

DC offset. Yuck.

Signed Win2k and XP drivers. Then I can guarantee it's not the Delta making things crash.

Resizable Control Panel Applet. Hopefully less of an eye sore in the future ala OS X.

Maudio shortcut if you place it in the quick launch panel of win98 changes it's icon at random.

The Envy24 is quite the little chip. You can get the pdf's at www.icensemble.com . It is capable of the next problem: Hardware acceleration of basic windows sounds and functions. If you've ever played a game as a session tension reliever, it's rendered in software. Quake III BTW is AWESOME for solving fights amoungst bandmates.

Most of all, stop blaming VIA. VIA owns ICEnsemble. This is not an excuse. Please don't tell us to swap pci slots anymore. :)

Let's fix the phase in software, and have a phase switch button in the control panel mixer. I really don't want to part with my bread winner for 6 weeks.

Create proper online documentation of user's frequently asked questions. Keep it current. Create a user forum or a space where users can speak out about their purchases. Good or bad.

Program the clock generators to produce a tighter tick. Anything to bring jitter down! Guess I need an Aardsync?

Please remove Billy Sheehan. J/k :)

Maudio markets this on their web page "The kind of power that used to command a $10-20,000 price tag can now be harnessed for a fraction of that cost."

Let's prove it.

Thank you again sincerely,

Robot
 
Robot,

those are good points. I would like to see those points adressed but...

------------------
Surely Maudio is a value in today's market. Yep it sounds okay.
------------------
It is great value. I think it sounds more than OK. I compared it directly against a Lucid which pros prefer to the apogee, and it matched up nicely. More than one person could not hear a difference.

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Multiclient isn't multiclient. Even the Sblive can do better in that regard. And when I say multiclient, I mean I want to see Logic and Sound Forge play together on the same output pair. This is a professional device.
-----------------

I believe that the multiclient works in windeows 98/me. Logic's "release audio in background" does not work yet, thats why you cant use Soundforge and Logic at the same time. Other apps work I believe. I use three apps on the same output at the same time

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Routing sucks. I hate to say a word like "sucks" but I can't think of a better adjective. Icon based virtual routing please,
---------

I dont know of a card that has a better routing implementation. It does what it is supposed to do and does it better than anything Ive seen.WHat do you have in mind for implementation?

What I would like to see is a monitor mixer on more than one output so that I can use one for my main monitor and one for my headphone amp. Or they could even provide the monitor mixer option on every output pair.

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Resizable Control Panel Applet
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According to m-audio, the control panel apps cannot be resized so this is not m-audio's fault but windows.

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If you've ever played a game as a session tension reliever, it's rendered in software. Quake III BTW is AWESOME for solving fights amoungst bandmates.
-----------

Can you expatiate? I believe that output 1-2 are direct sound. THe performance is perfect in Unreal tournament. WHat does hardware accelerated sound sound like?
Hey, if you play unreal, I'll be happy to frag you multiple times on network play :D

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Most of all, stop blaming VIA. VIA owns ICEnsemble. This is not an excuse. Please don't tell us to swap pci slots anymore.
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I'm with you on that one.


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Program the clock generators to produce a tighter tick. Anything to bring jitter down! Guess I need an Aardsync?
-------

hunh? I tested the clocks in the delta 1010, lucid ad9624 and lucid genx6. some people could not hear a single difference. Others ranked the delta 1010 clock second only to the genx6( and they said they sounded very close)SOme even ranked the delta 1010 clock first(I disagree) THey do sound close unless you listen with the genx6 clock on DA, then the genx6 sounds more real. I prefer my delta 1010 clocks to the internal clock on the more expensive ad9624. I even prefer the delta 1010 clock sound on some material over the more expensive dedicated genx6 clock. How much better can it get.

What I would like to see is the wordclock input working. THe output works fine. I just want the input to work


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Let's fix the phase in software, and have a phase switch button in the control panel mixer. I really don't want to part with my bread winner for 6 weeks.

Create proper online documentation of user's frequently asked questions. Keep it current. Create a user forum or a space where users can speak out about their purchases. Good or bad.
--------------

Again, I agree totally. m-audio, listen to this guy.


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Maudio markets this on their web page "The kind of power that used to command a $10-20,000 price tag can now be harnessed for a fraction of that cost."
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Its very true though. the delta 1010 package and the delta line packages provide hardware and software solutions that would have cost a fortune just ten yrs ago. THe package is bundled with gigasampler, logic, unity ds-1 etc.
 
Re: Re: ahh..

To clarify, balanced/unbalanced and -10/+4 are two different things. I run an Unbalaned pre (Great River MP2) into my Delta 44 set at +4 and don't have any problems. Most pres should be able to put out +4. -10 would be used for more "consumer" type sources (i.e. some keyboards, or a stereo cassette player).
Good luck with getting the phase problems fixed!
-Evan

Robot said:
<snip>
Yes, I use many out board preamps. Some aren't balanced, and I like to dual mic sources using both +4dbu and -10dbv. Not everything is balanced in the recording world.
<snip>
Thank you kindly,

Robot
Click to expand...
 
Hello Cyan,

I believe I have heard your Lucid vs. Delta 1010 test. I presume the 2nd example in the MP3 is the Delta 1010. It is a very noticable difference. The 2nd example is very dull lacking much definition. I have not had this experience with Lucid in studios.

As far as what pros prefer, I'll tell you as a "pro", I'll take a Studer A80 24 track 2 inch. I stand by my statement that the Delta 1010 sounds "ok". Sound quality is not my problem with the Delta 1010, so I ain't even going there. Hearing is very subjective, and sound in it's physical manifestation is subject to many various obsticles before it bounces into one's ear(s). :)

Multiclient operation, glad it seems to work for you. It doesn't function with the x.x.38 drivers for me too well. Aside from the evil DC offset the x.x.38 has rendering it useless for me. Yeah, there's work arounds. By now you may have gathered I don't care to waste time on things like phase and dc offset. :)

Routing, take a look at the Pulsar, an Aardvark card, Hoontech DS24mkII, or even the Terratec EWS2496. Pretty cool. I want to do routing like take the output of Logic's main out to Delta 1010 out 1&2, and also send to SPDIF out, or all Delta outs if I care to. Or maybe I'd like to send Logic's output to Sound Forge. Internally. This can and has been done. I don't care about latency either. I hate monitor mixer. Just let my draw where I want the digits to flow.

Software rendering in games, the difference isn't sound quality, it's cpu use. Software rendering relies on the cpu, Direct Sound rendering uses the card. In my observations, all windows sounds are rendered in software. Much akin to "tooltips" not being rendered in video hardware. Maybe Microsoft is just retarded?

Control Panel Applet, if it can't be resized as an applet, then let me install it as a standard app. Like Hoontech DSP24MkII.

Jitter, why not? At least fool me with a meter. Tell me when frames are dropped. The work around on this one is to go buy a real Oscilliscope, Phase Meter, and all that... but I'll take a little app. :)

If you go read the Envy 24 pdf's all this and far more is possible. How do I know? For one thing, any card that uses the Envy24 shares the same driver under Linux. Discovering this, I went back to windows, and got the drivers from every Envy24 card I could get and tested them on my Delta. Hoontech's VXD drivers ROCK on the Delta 1010. Icon based routing, resizable mixer, working multiclient...

Hoontech did an almost full implementation of the Envy24 in their DSP24mkII, so if you do this experiment, remember the Delta 1010 doesn't have "internal i/o", which on the DSP24mkII is their Direct Sound general windows 1/8" i/o.

You need the DSP24mkII drivers and apps. Terratech's and Seasound's don't work on the 1010, nor does Sek'd. Terratech's does load, but I couldn't get audio going. It is very pretty at least. :)

More? I say let's continue this debate. I'm having fun. Cyan you're a great intelligence, and have valid points to the "yea" of my "nay".

Hasta La Pasta,

Robot
 
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