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ScreamingHead69

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I'm trying to figure out the scale that the bulk of the song "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath is based on, but I'm really not great at scale work. This is the best I can figure it, am I at least close to some kind of diminished G scale? I've bolded the notes that are played throuought the song for those who don't worship Tonni Iommi, I'm not here to judge.

D-------------3-5----
A-------3-4-5--------
E-3-5-6--------------
 
It's just a minor scale, with that diminished 5th added. In terms of a major scale, that note (the Db on the 5th string) is commonly called a flatted 3rd--the Sabbath/Metallica specialty.
 
Purge said:
It's just a minor scale, with that diminished 5th added. In terms of a major scale, that note (the Db on the 5th string) is commonly called a flatted 3rd--the Sabbath/Metallica specialty.
Click to expand...

I think you mean the Db is the flat 5. A flat 3rd would simply be called a minor third. This is just the blues scale; commonly played over dominant 7th and minor 7th chords.
 
I see your point...I just wasn't clear on this one. Take "Black Sabbath"...key of G minor, which translates over to Bb major. D would be the 3rd note in the major scale, so flat that one and you've got Db--flatted 3rd.
 
I should also add that I got so used to Metallica calling that note the "flatted 3rd" in those old Guitar World mags, that nowadays as soon as I start to talk theory with people who actually know their shit, I sound like even more of a moron! :D
 
My GOD I suck at ascii!!
But what I've played sabbath, and other 70's bands, they almost always stick to the blues-scale (pentatonic?). But at least Iommi sometimes goes to minor scale, or just slips the second note of minor(flat2?) to the blues-scale, thus the illustration from E:

G l--l--l--l--l--l--lXl--lXl--l--
D l--l--l--l?lXl--lXlXlXl--l--
A l--l--l--l--lXl--lXl--l--l--l--l
E l--l?lXl--lXlXlXl--l--l--l--l-

? being the extra note from a minor/flat scale..
..all this shit probably has REAL names which are lost to me..
I REALLY ought to go back and READ something of those..

You shouldn't EVER start with pentatonic or minor scales to learn playing, they sound so good that the reading stops there.. :D

Majors and dims sound like crapola, so that's the way to start learning!
 
ScreamingHead69 said:
I'm trying to figure out the scale that the bulk of the song "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath is based on, but I'm really not great at scale work. This is the best I can figure it, am I at least close to some kind of diminished G scale? I've bolded the notes that are played throuought the song for those who don't worship Tonni Iommi, I'm not here to judge.

D-------------3-5----
A-------3-4-5--------
E-3-5-6--------------
Click to expand...

Purge is right, it's just a minor scale with the flat 5th added.
You were questioning if this was G diminished, I just wanted to point out that if this were a diminished scale, you would have the flat 5th, but you would not have the perfect 5th in there as well.

Jouni, I don't understand your diagram. I think what you're saying is just that adding the second in there (actually a major second, not a flat2) you are suggesting the minor scale, like the A note that shows up in Screaming Head's diagram.
That's the only thing that suggests that his scale is a minor scale rather than just a "blues" scale, or a minor pentatonic with the added flat 5th.
 
We're , or I am.. really on the limits of my english here... :o

But if I understood ScreamingHead right, then yes..
The A in metalhead's diagram (from G) equals the ?-mark in my diagram. (but from E) Which, I placed in two locations cause my diagram covers two octaves.
I use that alot too..
EVERYBODY and their mother uses that..
it's nice because..
It gives you a chance to play a really dark first-half-of-riff from minor, suddenly turning "groovy" in the last-part-of-riff, as you play through the flat5th on your way to end. Or vice versa.. whatever floats your boat..

Yes, the note is from a major, but isn't it in minor too?

minor?
Dl--lXl
Al--l--lXlX
El--l--lXlX

..freestring notes included..duh.


Some really bad joke I read about M.Jackson included A minor..
 
Okay, I think I understand your diagram now, it didn't click before that I was looking at fret positions, sorry :D

Yeah, I was refering to the interval being a major second. The minor scale does contain a major second too, I just wanted to point out that is wasn't flatted. ;)

I think I've heard that MJ joke too. :p
 
metalhead28 said:
Purge is right, it's just a minor scale with the flat 5th added.

That's the only thing that suggests that his scale is a minor scale rather than just a "blues" scale, or a minor pentatonic with the added flat 5th.
Click to expand...

I'm not nit-picking - this is important:

You're correct that technically, the Blues scale does not include the major second (though it certainly fits). A Blues scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5. Screaminghead's scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5 and major second, or a Blues scale with one added note (the major second).

The problem with calling it "just a minor scale" with an added b5 is that there are several minor scales. "Minor" just tells you the about the b3. It does not tell you if it is a natural minor (aolean), dorian, harmonic minor, etc. Those qualities are critical to understanding when the notes from that scale are "appropriate".

I think that being able to explain theory can be over-rated. I've heard it said that music theory can only explain what has already been played. That said, there are basic things competent musicians need to know, and I think things like knowing the difference between a natural and harmonic minor scale are some of those basic things, which is why I felt I should "nit-pick". :)
 
leddy said:
I'm not nit-picking - this is important:

You're correct that technically, the Blues scale does not include the major second (though it certainly fits). A Blues scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5. Screaminghead's scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5 and major second, or a Blues scale with one added note (the major second).

The problem with calling it "just a minor scale" with an added b5 is that there are several minor scales. "Minor" just tells you the about the b3. It does not tell you if it is a natural minor (aolean), dorian, harmonic minor, etc. Those qualities are critical to understanding when the notes from that scale are "appropriate".

I think that being able to explain theory can be over-rated. I've heard it said that music theory can only explain what has already been played. That said, there are basic things competent musicians need to know, and I think things like knowing the difference between a natural and harmonic minor scale are some of those basic things, which is why I felt I should "nit-pick". :)
Click to expand...
Well that's why I asked in the first place. But that actually explained a ton. I'd still like to hear a straight "yes that works" or "no you're retarted" on my scale composure.
 
ScreamingHead69 said:
Well that's why I asked in the first place. But that actually explained a ton. I'd still like to hear a straight "yes that works" or "no you're retarted" on my scale composure.
Click to expand...

You're fine. Pentatonic and Blues scales are very common in rock.
 
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leddy said:
I'm not nit-picking - this is important:

You're correct that technically, the Blues scale does not include the major second (though it certainly fits). A Blues scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5. Screaminghead's scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5 and major second, or a Blues scale with one added note (the major second).

The problem with calling it "just a minor scale" with an added b5 is that there are several minor scales. "Minor" just tells you the about the b3. It does not tell you if it is a natural minor (aolean), dorian, harmonic minor, etc. Those qualities are critical to understanding when the notes from that scale are "appropriate".

I think that being able to explain theory can be over-rated. I've heard it said that music theory can only explain what has already been played. That said, there are basic things competent musicians need to know, and I think things like knowing the difference between a natural and harmonic minor scale are some of those basic things, which is why I felt I should "nit-pick". :)
Click to expand...

That's a good point, but most people consider the Aeolian mode the "minor" scale so I figured it was safe to call it that. One reason why I would cite the Aeolian mode for that song is because I remember the palm muted single note interlude riff contains the minor 6th, which he did not include in his diagram. That firmly roots it in Aeolian territory.
Concerning just the scale that Screaminghead tabbed out, you would need to know what other degrees were involved in order to describe it any further as a diatonic scale without making assumptions, and by that logic I suppose you're right that calling it a blues scale with an added major second would make more sense.
For what it's worth, I do think all of the soloing in that song is just minor pentatonic.
For any type of metal or hard rock I think it's imperitive to learn at least the Aeolian mode. I'd rather leave out notes to play minor pentatonic instead of not knowing which ones to add for Aeolian if that makes any sense. ;)
 
Absolutely. I don't know the tune in question, so I could only go off of his info.

metalhead28 said:
I'd rather leave out notes to play minor pentatonic instead of not knowing which ones to add for Aeolian if that makes any sense. ;)
Click to expand...

Right on. I would rather hear anyone play simply with great time and feel, than hear a flurry of notes played out of context (or good taste) etc.

:)
 
ScreamingHead69 said:
I'm trying to figure out the scale that the bulk of the song "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath is based on, but I'm really not great at scale work. This is the best I can figure it, am I at least close to some kind of diminished G scale? I've bolded the notes that are played throuought the song for those who don't worship Tonni Iommi, I'm not here to judge.

D-------------3-5----
A-------3-4-5--------
E-3-5-6--------------
Click to expand...

It's a Bb Major scale played from G to G.
Which makes it an Aeolian mode. (Which is a $2 way of saying a minor scale based of the sixth note of the major scale, or it's relative minor)

Stock Sabbath (and a zillion other bands) stuff.

Don't get too caught up in the theory (the theory nazis will kill you with this locrian, that half-diminished etc.)

If it sounds good, it is good.
 
foo said:
It's a Bb Major scale played from G to G.
Which makes it an Aeolian mode. (Which is a $2 way of saying a minor scale based of the sixth note of the major scale, or it's relative minor)

Stock Sabbath (and a zillion other bands) stuff.

Don't get too caught up in the theory (the theory nazis will kill you with this locrian, that half-diminished etc.)
Click to expand...

No it's not. Read the thread.

A Bb maj scale from G to G would be:

3-5 (F-G)
3-5-6 (C-D-Eb)
3-5-6 (G-A-Bb)

I agree about not getting too caught up in theory, worry about if it sounds good.

IMO however, someone is only a 'theory nazi" if they put theory knowledge before making good music. Knowing everything you can about making music only gives you more tools. Why wouldn't you want to know everything you could about the "how's and why's" of music? Does anyone honestly think that knowing their chords and scales will somehow hold them back? More commonly, that attitude is used as an excuse from people who have not taken the time to learn what they should know.

(And FWIW, IMO, etc, this is seriously basic stuff. If this is over your head, you may wish to rethink using phrases like "theory nazi's"). Peace.
:)
 
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leddy said:
You're correct that technically, the Blues scale does not include the major second (though it certainly fits). A Blues scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5. Screaminghead's scale is a minor pentatonic with an added b5 and major second, or a Blues scale with one added note (the major second).
Click to expand...

Am I the only one who finds the term "minor pentatonic" to be bordering on heresy? :D There is only one pentatonic scale, and it is, by definition, pentatonic---neither minor nor major. The terms "minor pentatonic" and "major pentatonic" are just the Ionian and Aeolian pentatonic modes.... I know the terms major/minor pentatonic are commonly used, but they really grate on me. :)

If I'm reading the tabs right (G A Bb C Db D F G), then yes, this scale is a blues scale with added major 2nd. You could also think of it as a natural minor with the fifth and sixth lowered a half step, though. There's not an added flat fifth, because there's no sixth present. So you have to consider the normally minor 6th in a natural minor scale to have been flatted to a fifth, and the fifth flatted to a tritone.
 
dgatwood said:
Am I the only one who finds the term "minor pentatonic" to be bordering on heresy? :D There is only one pentatonic scale, and it is, by definition, pentatonic---neither minor nor major. The terms "minor pentatonic" and "major pentatonic" are just the Ionian and Aeolian pentatonic modes.... I know the terms major/minor pentatonic are commonly used, but they really grate on me. :)
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Since the minor pentatonic scale is simply a mode of the major (or just "pentatonic") scale, than it should not grate on you any more than any other minor mode would, no? Or am I missing something? :confused:

dgatwood said:
If I'm reading the tabs right (G A Bb C Db D F G), then yes, this scale is a blues scale with added major 2nd. You could also think of it as a natural minor with the fifth and sixth lowered a half step, though. There's not an added flat fifth, because there's no sixth present. So you have to consider the normally minor 6th in a natural minor scale to have been flatted to a fifth, and the fifth flatted to a tritone.
Click to expand...

I look at it this way: Some folks think music theory is a set of rules, which is why you get phrases like "theory nazi" from some folks. I look at it as commonly-accepted guidelines to explain music that has already been created. The names we assign should be as simple and complete as possible, to make communicating as easy as possible. Screaminghead's scale could be called a lot of things, but what communicates it the most simply and accurately, the "natural minor with a b5 and b6 sort of" scale? I don't care if you call it "Frank's Butthole Scale", as long as it means the same thing to everyone. :)

I can't wait until this thread reaches 100 posts with everyone chiming in on how to describe a feakin' blues scale. ;)

Good times...
 
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