Guitar intonation
- Thread starter mentil69
- Start date
If you are in doubt, tune your guitar really good, grab an open E chord, then bar it to an F and progress up the fingerboard listening to the individual strings on each chord. If they get to sounding out of tune then your intonation is off and needs adjusting. Compare the tone of the string open and on the 12th fret, they should be the same ( 1 octave higher) you can adjust this cloce by ear, clocer with a tuner, but if you want to get them really right you will need to have this set using a strobe tuner.
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
You can't do much about fret placement (or "scale length") but by adjusting your bridge saddles you can tweak each individual string so that the fretted octave and the harmonic octave match up.
Guitar techs can do this for you for a modest sum. If you want to try it yourself, you will need more than the typical LED type $20 tuners. They are only accurate to plus or minus 3 cents or so. Download the free tuner on my homepage...
http://geocities.com/tomh888/
Tune the open string first then play the harmonic at the 12th fret. If the harmonic is sharp, adjust the saddle to make the string longer. If the harmonic is flat of the open note, adjust the saddle to make the string shorter. Keep retuning the open string after each saddle adjustment and then re-compare the two pitches. Repeat for all six strings.
Guitar techs can do this for you for a modest sum. If you want to try it yourself, you will need more than the typical LED type $20 tuners. They are only accurate to plus or minus 3 cents or so. Download the free tuner on my homepage...
http://geocities.com/tomh888/
Tune the open string first then play the harmonic at the 12th fret. If the harmonic is sharp, adjust the saddle to make the string longer. If the harmonic is flat of the open note, adjust the saddle to make the string shorter. Keep retuning the open string after each saddle adjustment and then re-compare the two pitches. Repeat for all six strings.
bongolation
New member
Note that this is still only an approximation and a compromise, as there will be differences elsewhere on the fretboard due to fret placement, wear and profile as well as action height and nut adjustment. I don't know what I've ever seen a really well-done nut on a production guitar and very few of them that had been done right aftermarket by so-called "guitar techs."Tom Hicks said:
Bottom line? Few if any guitars can ever be truly in tune thoughout their scale. Intonating to match one pair of fretted and harmonic notes is just sort of a ballpark exercise, the best that can be easily done.
Within this inherent limitation, I don't see dropping the bucks for a strobe tuner.
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
You can't do much about fret placement (or "scale length") but by adjusting your bridge saddles you can tweak each individual string so that the fretted octave and the harmonic octave match up.
That's the entire quote, and the first part is what you have elaborated on, bongolation.
Within this inherent limitation, I don't see dropping the bucks for a strobe tuner.
Download the free tuner on my homepage...
http://geocities.com/tomh888/
The tunelab program is designed for piano tuners to use (you know how exacting they are) with an accuracy of 1/100th cent
I know you want to be helpful, but try to stay current.
Tom Hicks
Charvel/Jackson guitar tech 95-97
That's the entire quote, and the first part is what you have elaborated on, bongolation.
Within this inherent limitation, I don't see dropping the bucks for a strobe tuner.
Download the free tuner on my homepage...
http://geocities.com/tomh888/
The tunelab program is designed for piano tuners to use (you know how exacting they are) with an accuracy of 1/100th cent
I know you want to be helpful, but try to stay current.
Tom Hicks
Charvel/Jackson guitar tech 95-97
GT
New member
Tom,
Here we go again. You didn't think I'd let you get away with this, did you?
Gotta agree with bongo. The twelfth fret will only be good for open, and the twelfth fret.
Once you have set the guitar in this manner, check and see how off the other frets are, you will find that you have one fret right on, and the rest will be off.
I still say do it by ear, with real chords up and down the neck.
In ideal world the twelth fret would work fine, and all the other frets would be magically in perfect tune too, but this ain't ideal world.
Ya gots to do it by ear, mean tempering, Tom you taught me that one!!
GT
Here we go again. You didn't think I'd let you get away with this, did you?
Gotta agree with bongo. The twelfth fret will only be good for open, and the twelfth fret.
Once you have set the guitar in this manner, check and see how off the other frets are, you will find that you have one fret right on, and the rest will be off.
I still say do it by ear, with real chords up and down the neck.
In ideal world the twelth fret would work fine, and all the other frets would be magically in perfect tune too, but this ain't ideal world.
Ya gots to do it by ear, mean tempering, Tom you taught me that one!!
GT
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
Hi GT
I understand where you are coming from.Your system works well if you only play in a certain part of the neck. The further you move from the specific area that you used to tune with , the more your tuning will drift off pitch. The tempered scale (placement of the pattern of the frets) makes micro-adjustments of "being a little off" which allows you to move around the neck and be "mostly in tune" in all places as opposed to "exactly in tune" in one spot. This tempered scale is built into your instrument, unless you actually move the frets to new positions.
Historically, this came about in the baroque era when the composers began modulating through the keys. As long as you only have to play in G and you tune to G, your chords sound fine. But as soon as you modulate to a more distant key, the intervals that the chords are built on begin to sound off.
Both systems work well for their intended purposes. Tempering is a more modern method that has been the standard for tuning for the past few hundred years. But tuning to "perfect" intervals will most often do fine (as long as the tune doesn't modulate too much).
I understand where you are coming from.Your system works well if you only play in a certain part of the neck. The further you move from the specific area that you used to tune with , the more your tuning will drift off pitch. The tempered scale (placement of the pattern of the frets) makes micro-adjustments of "being a little off" which allows you to move around the neck and be "mostly in tune" in all places as opposed to "exactly in tune" in one spot. This tempered scale is built into your instrument, unless you actually move the frets to new positions.
Historically, this came about in the baroque era when the composers began modulating through the keys. As long as you only have to play in G and you tune to G, your chords sound fine. But as soon as you modulate to a more distant key, the intervals that the chords are built on begin to sound off.
Both systems work well for their intended purposes. Tempering is a more modern method that has been the standard for tuning for the past few hundred years. But tuning to "perfect" intervals will most often do fine (as long as the tune doesn't modulate too much).
GT
New member
No Tom, I said chords all the way up the neck, lead too.
Play as many chords as you can, across the whole neck, and adjust from there, that way the whole neck is covered.
Tempering can take a long time, and may drive you insane, but time and sanity are overated.
I don't know, but I bet the really good piano tuners, still do it by ear, so why not guitars?
BTW: I could be wrong, BUT I DON"T THINK SO!!
GT
Play as many chords as you can, across the whole neck, and adjust from there, that way the whole neck is covered.
Tempering can take a long time, and may drive you insane, but time and sanity are overated.
I don't know, but I bet the really good piano tuners, still do it by ear, so why not guitars?
BTW: I could be wrong, BUT I DON"T THINK SO!!
GT
GT
New member
Tom,
If I'm wrong, you must be right, so you da man!!
I do want to say that guitars are a very personal instrument, and setup should be just as personal.
If you love your guitar, do your own setup, the way you think is best.
Do not take it to a guitar tech, he's not the one who's going to be playing it!!
Get into your guitar, with your own ears!!
No offense Tom.
GT
If I'm wrong, you must be right, so you da man!!
I do want to say that guitars are a very personal instrument, and setup should be just as personal.
If you love your guitar, do your own setup, the way you think is best.
Do not take it to a guitar tech, he's not the one who's going to be playing it!!
Get into your guitar, with your own ears!!
No offense Tom.
GT
Wish
Never Sarcastic....Honest
Adjusting the intonation:
(From an article by Kevin Bourrillion)
What you will need:
- A screwdriver. Usually Phillips for Strat-type guitars, and flat-edged for Les Paul-type guitars. Check your bridge.
- An electronic tuner of any variety. (The "working" variety is strongly preferred.)
- A cord. (Unless your tuner has a *very* sensitive microphone)
- A pick, if you generally use one.
STEPS
1. Tune the guitar to pitch. Choose a string, and play the 12th fret harmonic. Using the tuner, bring this harmonic into tune. Get it absolutely as close as you can. Remember, when tuning down, always tune down PAST the correct pitch and then bring the note UP to the correct tune.
2. Now, with an eye on the tuner, fret the string at the 12th fret and play it again. It is important that you do not bend the string slightly to either side as you press it to the fingerboard. Try not to apply any more pressure to the string than is necessary for a clean tone.
3. If the tuner shows that this fretted note is perfectly in tune, then the note is equal in pitch to the 12th fret harmonic, thus -- correct intonation! Move on to the next string.
4. If the tuner shows the note to be sharp (that is, the pitch is too high), it means that the string is too short. Correct this by turning the screw in the corresponding saddle CLOCKWISE. Over time, you will get a feel for the right amount to turn the screw each time, but there is always a large amount of trial-and-error. Start off with a quarter turn, and see what that does. In any case, START AGAIN FROM STEP 1.
5. If, however, the fretted note is slightly flat (that is, the pitch is too low), the string is too long and you should turn the screw COUNTER- CLOCKWISE. Again, try a quarter turn for starters until you get the feel for it. GO BACK TO STEP 1, and continue until the harmonic and fretted note are both perfectly in tune.
WARNING: You CANNOT simply tune the harmonic, then turn the screw until the fretted note is in tune. Moving the saddle changes the tune of the string, so you must tune the harmonic all over again before trying the fret again.
6. When you have finished all six strings, check out the result! Make sure you are in tune first, of course, then play a few chords up and down the neck (especially "up" the neck). If you have followed the procedure correctly, the intonation should be correct.
"Proper" guitar tuning:
The following is a reprint of THE GUILD OF AMERICAN LUTHIERS data sheet #45.
Many guitarists are frustrated because of their attempts to tune the guitar to pure chords (free of beats). These particular players have very sensitive ears that prefer pure intervals and reject the mandatory equal temperament. They tune their guitar beautifully pure on one chord only to discover that the next chord form is unacceptable. In too many instances they assume that there must be a flaw in the workmanship on the fingerboard. Their problem is not in the construction of the guitar. It is one of pure tuning verses equal temperament.
You must accept this compromise because the guitar is an instrument of fixed pitch and the strings must be tuned to tempered intervals, not pure. Equal temperament is the name given to a system of dividing the chromatic scale into 12 equal half steps. Guitarists who have been trying to tune to one or another pure chord form must learn to understand and accept equal temperament. (They might be interested to know that to approximate pure chords on all forms would require about three dozen frets within the octave.) The system of equal temperament reduces the number to twelve, thereby making manageable all instruments of fixed pitch.
Here is what all of this means to the guitarist: You must not, at any time, use harmonic tones at the 7th fret as a point of reference (skilled piano tuners could use them because they know how many beats to introduce between 4th and 5th). Harmonic tones at the 7th fret are pure 5ths, while in equal temperament each 5th must be lowered slightly. To tune by harmonics at the 7th fret (as occasionally ill-advised) will make the guitar sound entirely unacceptable on some chord forms.
On the other hand, all harmonics at the 12th and 5th frets, being one and two octaves above the open strings, are immediately useful as explained below. All octaves and unisons are pure on all instruments of fixed pitch. Therefore, you may use harmonics at 12th and 5th as reference tones in the following tuning instructions.
Actually this discussion and the following suggestions are for those players who have been tuning to pure intervals. When the steps have been followed correctly the guitar will be as perfectly tuned as it could be in the hands of a professional. Nevertheless, when you have finished, your sensitive ear may notice that on each major chord form there is always one tone slightly high. If you start adjusting a particular string on a certain chord form, you only compound the problem because then the next chord form will be completely objectionable. Tune the guitar as instructed below and let it stand. How to help your ear accept equal temperament: It is easier to face a problem if we are prepared in advance and expect it. If you are one of those persons who is sensitive to pure intervals, here is what you are going to notice on an absolutely perfectly tuned guitar in equal temperament: Play an open E major chord. Listen to G# on the third string and you most likely will want to lower it very slightly. Don't do it. Ignore it. Enjoy the overall beauty and resonance of chord just as does the pianist.
That troublesome second string: Play an open position A major chord. Listen to the C# on the second string and you may want to lower it slightly. Play a first position C chord and listen to the E on the first string and fourth string at 2. These tones are slightly higher than your ear would like.
Now play an open position G chord. Listen to B on the second string. Yes, it would sound a little better if lowered ever so slightly. Why not try it? Slack off the second string a couple of vibrations and notice what beautiful G chord results. Now play the C chord and with that lowered second string, and you are going to dislike the rough C and E a lot more than before. Take the open B, second string back up to equal temperament so that it will be equally acceptable on all forms. Learn to expect and accept the slight sharpness of the major third in each chord (and oppositely, the flatness of the minor third in each minor chord). Train your ear to accept tempered intervals and you will be much happier with your guitar.
PROCEDURE:
Tuning the 1st and 6th strings: The E, open 1st string, must be in pure unison with the harmonic of the E, 6th string at the fifth fret. When these two strings have been properly tuned with each other, continue as follows. Tuning the 4th string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 6th string at twelve, and as this harmonic sounds, adjust the 4th string until the tone E on the second fret is in pure unison. Now you have the E, open 1st string, 1st on the 4th string at two, and E, open 6th string tuned pure (permissible because they are octaves).
Tuning the 2nd string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve. As this sounds, adjust the 2nd string until D at the third fret is in pure unison. As you have used two fretted tones for references and as the frets are positioned for tempered intervals, you now have the open 1st, 2nd 4th and 6th strings in tempered tuning.
Tuning the 3rd string: As it is easier to adjust a string while listening to a continuous reference tone, you may first try the following: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve and as this sounds, adjust the 3rd string until D at the 7th fret is in pure unison.
Double check: Now make this check to see if you have been accurate or if the instrument plays tune when fretted at seven. Play a harmonic on the (now tuned) G string at twelve, and as this tone sounds, play G on the 1st string at three. The two tones should be in pure unison. If they are not, either you are at fault or the instrument doesn't fret tune at seven. Go back to the beginning and carefully check each step up to this point. If the tones are still faulty, then readjust the 3rd string until the harmonic at twelve is in unison with the 1st at three. Do not tamper with the 1st and 4th strings because it is the 3rd string you are trying to bring in tune. When you have the 1st, 6th, 4th, 2nd and 3rd strings in tune, in that order, continue with the remaining 5th string.
Tuning the 5th string: Play the tone A on the (in tune) 3rd string, at the second fret. Listen to this pitch carefully and now adjust the 5th string until the harmonic at twelve is in pure unison. When the foregoing steps are followed correctly, the strings will be tuned perfectly to equal temperament. No further tuning adjustments are permissible.
(From an article by Kevin Bourrillion)
What you will need:
- A screwdriver. Usually Phillips for Strat-type guitars, and flat-edged for Les Paul-type guitars. Check your bridge.
- An electronic tuner of any variety. (The "working" variety is strongly preferred.)
- A cord. (Unless your tuner has a *very* sensitive microphone)
- A pick, if you generally use one.
STEPS
1. Tune the guitar to pitch. Choose a string, and play the 12th fret harmonic. Using the tuner, bring this harmonic into tune. Get it absolutely as close as you can. Remember, when tuning down, always tune down PAST the correct pitch and then bring the note UP to the correct tune.
2. Now, with an eye on the tuner, fret the string at the 12th fret and play it again. It is important that you do not bend the string slightly to either side as you press it to the fingerboard. Try not to apply any more pressure to the string than is necessary for a clean tone.
3. If the tuner shows that this fretted note is perfectly in tune, then the note is equal in pitch to the 12th fret harmonic, thus -- correct intonation! Move on to the next string.
4. If the tuner shows the note to be sharp (that is, the pitch is too high), it means that the string is too short. Correct this by turning the screw in the corresponding saddle CLOCKWISE. Over time, you will get a feel for the right amount to turn the screw each time, but there is always a large amount of trial-and-error. Start off with a quarter turn, and see what that does. In any case, START AGAIN FROM STEP 1.
5. If, however, the fretted note is slightly flat (that is, the pitch is too low), the string is too long and you should turn the screw COUNTER- CLOCKWISE. Again, try a quarter turn for starters until you get the feel for it. GO BACK TO STEP 1, and continue until the harmonic and fretted note are both perfectly in tune.
WARNING: You CANNOT simply tune the harmonic, then turn the screw until the fretted note is in tune. Moving the saddle changes the tune of the string, so you must tune the harmonic all over again before trying the fret again.
6. When you have finished all six strings, check out the result! Make sure you are in tune first, of course, then play a few chords up and down the neck (especially "up" the neck). If you have followed the procedure correctly, the intonation should be correct.
"Proper" guitar tuning:
The following is a reprint of THE GUILD OF AMERICAN LUTHIERS data sheet #45.
Many guitarists are frustrated because of their attempts to tune the guitar to pure chords (free of beats). These particular players have very sensitive ears that prefer pure intervals and reject the mandatory equal temperament. They tune their guitar beautifully pure on one chord only to discover that the next chord form is unacceptable. In too many instances they assume that there must be a flaw in the workmanship on the fingerboard. Their problem is not in the construction of the guitar. It is one of pure tuning verses equal temperament.
You must accept this compromise because the guitar is an instrument of fixed pitch and the strings must be tuned to tempered intervals, not pure. Equal temperament is the name given to a system of dividing the chromatic scale into 12 equal half steps. Guitarists who have been trying to tune to one or another pure chord form must learn to understand and accept equal temperament. (They might be interested to know that to approximate pure chords on all forms would require about three dozen frets within the octave.) The system of equal temperament reduces the number to twelve, thereby making manageable all instruments of fixed pitch.
Here is what all of this means to the guitarist: You must not, at any time, use harmonic tones at the 7th fret as a point of reference (skilled piano tuners could use them because they know how many beats to introduce between 4th and 5th). Harmonic tones at the 7th fret are pure 5ths, while in equal temperament each 5th must be lowered slightly. To tune by harmonics at the 7th fret (as occasionally ill-advised) will make the guitar sound entirely unacceptable on some chord forms.
On the other hand, all harmonics at the 12th and 5th frets, being one and two octaves above the open strings, are immediately useful as explained below. All octaves and unisons are pure on all instruments of fixed pitch. Therefore, you may use harmonics at 12th and 5th as reference tones in the following tuning instructions.
Actually this discussion and the following suggestions are for those players who have been tuning to pure intervals. When the steps have been followed correctly the guitar will be as perfectly tuned as it could be in the hands of a professional. Nevertheless, when you have finished, your sensitive ear may notice that on each major chord form there is always one tone slightly high. If you start adjusting a particular string on a certain chord form, you only compound the problem because then the next chord form will be completely objectionable. Tune the guitar as instructed below and let it stand. How to help your ear accept equal temperament: It is easier to face a problem if we are prepared in advance and expect it. If you are one of those persons who is sensitive to pure intervals, here is what you are going to notice on an absolutely perfectly tuned guitar in equal temperament: Play an open E major chord. Listen to G# on the third string and you most likely will want to lower it very slightly. Don't do it. Ignore it. Enjoy the overall beauty and resonance of chord just as does the pianist.
That troublesome second string: Play an open position A major chord. Listen to the C# on the second string and you may want to lower it slightly. Play a first position C chord and listen to the E on the first string and fourth string at 2. These tones are slightly higher than your ear would like.
Now play an open position G chord. Listen to B on the second string. Yes, it would sound a little better if lowered ever so slightly. Why not try it? Slack off the second string a couple of vibrations and notice what beautiful G chord results. Now play the C chord and with that lowered second string, and you are going to dislike the rough C and E a lot more than before. Take the open B, second string back up to equal temperament so that it will be equally acceptable on all forms. Learn to expect and accept the slight sharpness of the major third in each chord (and oppositely, the flatness of the minor third in each minor chord). Train your ear to accept tempered intervals and you will be much happier with your guitar.
PROCEDURE:
Tuning the 1st and 6th strings: The E, open 1st string, must be in pure unison with the harmonic of the E, 6th string at the fifth fret. When these two strings have been properly tuned with each other, continue as follows. Tuning the 4th string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 6th string at twelve, and as this harmonic sounds, adjust the 4th string until the tone E on the second fret is in pure unison. Now you have the E, open 1st string, 1st on the 4th string at two, and E, open 6th string tuned pure (permissible because they are octaves).
Tuning the 2nd string: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve. As this sounds, adjust the 2nd string until D at the third fret is in pure unison. As you have used two fretted tones for references and as the frets are positioned for tempered intervals, you now have the open 1st, 2nd 4th and 6th strings in tempered tuning.
Tuning the 3rd string: As it is easier to adjust a string while listening to a continuous reference tone, you may first try the following: Play a harmonic on the (in tune) 4th string at twelve and as this sounds, adjust the 3rd string until D at the 7th fret is in pure unison.
Double check: Now make this check to see if you have been accurate or if the instrument plays tune when fretted at seven. Play a harmonic on the (now tuned) G string at twelve, and as this tone sounds, play G on the 1st string at three. The two tones should be in pure unison. If they are not, either you are at fault or the instrument doesn't fret tune at seven. Go back to the beginning and carefully check each step up to this point. If the tones are still faulty, then readjust the 3rd string until the harmonic at twelve is in unison with the 1st at three. Do not tamper with the 1st and 4th strings because it is the 3rd string you are trying to bring in tune. When you have the 1st, 6th, 4th, 2nd and 3rd strings in tune, in that order, continue with the remaining 5th string.
Tuning the 5th string: Play the tone A on the (in tune) 3rd string, at the second fret. Listen to this pitch carefully and now adjust the 5th string until the harmonic at twelve is in pure unison. When the foregoing steps are followed correctly, the strings will be tuned perfectly to equal temperament. No further tuning adjustments are permissible.
scottboyher
New member
I suggest taking it to a pro shop and watch the tech set the intonation.
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
Its the cumulative errors of tuning by ear with "perfect" intervals.
If you go with absolute mathematical precision in building a scale, F sharp and G flat (for example) after TWO DIFFERENT notes with different (but pretty close) frequencies.
The bottom line of all this theory is that if you use "perfect" fourths, fifths or octaves to tune, and then play an E major chord in first position, the G# on the third string will be sharp. Then if you retune the G with its octave on the first string, third fret, the A note of the D major chord will then be flat. And so on, making minor corrections and never getting "in tune" all over the neck.
The equal tempered method isn't precise, but is WORKABLE, trading off absolute precision for the ability to modulate from key to key with reasonable sonority in all keys.
Truthfully, GT, based on my personal experience, most people can't tell tuning worth a damn. When I gig live, I tune to a tuner before each set. When I am recording, I tune up before each take.
If you go with absolute mathematical precision in building a scale, F sharp and G flat (for example) after TWO DIFFERENT notes with different (but pretty close) frequencies.
The bottom line of all this theory is that if you use "perfect" fourths, fifths or octaves to tune, and then play an E major chord in first position, the G# on the third string will be sharp. Then if you retune the G with its octave on the first string, third fret, the A note of the D major chord will then be flat. And so on, making minor corrections and never getting "in tune" all over the neck.
The equal tempered method isn't precise, but is WORKABLE, trading off absolute precision for the ability to modulate from key to key with reasonable sonority in all keys.
Truthfully, GT, based on my personal experience, most people can't tell tuning worth a damn. When I gig live, I tune to a tuner before each set. When I am recording, I tune up before each take.
LI_Slim
voice in the wilderness
I don't mean to denigrate any of this, but I want to point out that for those of us who don't know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, if you have a good guitar that sounds tuned when you tune it, don't waste your time and money perfecting something that noone else can tell is imperfect!