Drums won't stop clipping

BeniRose

BeniRose

New member
I'm getting a bit frustrated at my drums. Specifically my snare. I can't get my drums to stop clipping. Well I can, but then my snare is so far back in the mix it sounds buried. I'm mixing in logic and I keep getting a nice little red 6.0 above my fader on the snare channel when I finally get it to a volume I like, and a 4.4 on the output channel. It doesn't really sound bad, but I'm worried there's clipping in there I can't hear. Maybe I'm just being obsessive about not having logic clip, even if I can't hear it...should I be worrying about this? What are some tips to get your kick and snare to sit well in the mix without having them clip the channels and outputs? I'm actually having the same problem with my fake drums as well (ESX24 indie kit). What gives?
 
Sounds to me like you're "mixing too loud." Please read some of Farview's posts about tracking/mixing levels.
 
I've always felt the same way, that I was mixing too loud, but when I A/B it against a song in a similar genre in iTunes, it still sounds super quiet. I'll still be looking into those posts from Farview though, thanks for the recommendation.
 
I'll save you the search.

The drums peak level should be the loudest thing in the mix. If they have to be clipping in order to hear them, everything else is too loud. Turn down the other tracks.

If that is too much of a pain, create a group buss and route everything else to that and turn the group buss down.

If you are not compressing the kick and snare, I would try that as well.

Mixes are not supposed to be as loud as fully mastered finished products. There is another process that the mixes go through to get that final volume. Don't try to do that in the mix, just make everything sound good.
 
The drums are indeed the highest peak. I also have them running to a seperate bus before output so I can lower them entirely, but I already feel like they're too quite, and if I turn everything else down (which isn't a problem to do) the whole song sounds too quiet. I'm using heavy compression on the kick and snare, but to be truthful, they seem to be making it worse, maybe I'm no good at drum compression. I try started with a snare or kick preset and tweeking it, but as soon as I flip it on, it instantly clips, so I have to start with a much softer preset. Any links for drum compression? Or a book on drum mixing.
 
I didn't read your last comment there about mixing not being that loud. I know that they get a bit louder in mastering, but I still can't help but feeling that my mix is way too quiet, and feel extremely non-dynamic because my volume is so low. Maybe I'll mix it the way you suggest (turn down everything else so the drums not clipping) and then post it, along with a song in a similar genre, and you can tell me if it's all in my head, and if not, give me some advice. I appreciate all the advice you've given me so far!
 
BeniRose said:
I didn't read your last comment there about mixing not being that loud. I know that they get a bit louder in mastering, but I still can't help but feeling that my mix is way too quiet, and feel extremely non-dynamic because my volume is so low. Maybe I'll mix it the way you suggest (turn down everything else so the drums not clipping) and then post it, along with a song in a similar genre, and you can tell me if it's all in my head, and if not, give me some advice. I appreciate all the advice you've given me so far!
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Just fucking turn your monitors up. Loudness problem solved.


Your raw mixes cannot compete with commercial recordings. Stop trying to do so. Get your mix sounding right and you can get overall loudness later. There's a reason your monitors have volume controls.
 
BeniRose said:
I didn't read your last comment there about mixing not being that loud. I know that they get a bit louder in mastering, but I still can't help but feeling that my mix is way too quiet, and feel extremely non-dynamic because my volume is so low. Maybe I'll mix it the way you suggest (turn down everything else so the drums not clipping) and then post it, along with a song in a similar genre, and you can tell me if it's all in my head, and if not, give me some advice. I appreciate all the advice you've given me so far!
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It's obvioulsy going to be quieter if you A/B it with a mastered CD. But you're confusing volume with punch. Turn up your speakers after you turn down your mix and it should sound the same or better. Dynamics have nothing to do with it either...or, if anything, you'll have more dynamics by turning down the mix.
 
BeniRose said:
The drums are indeed the highest peak. I also have them running to a seperate bus before output so I can lower them entirely, but I already feel like they're too quite, and if I turn everything else down (which isn't a problem to do) the whole song sounds too quiet. I'm using heavy compression on the kick and snare, but to be truthful, they seem to be making it worse, maybe I'm no good at drum compression. I try started with a snare or kick preset and tweeking it, but as soon as I flip it on, it instantly clips, so I have to start with a much softer preset. Any links for drum compression? Or a book on drum mixing.
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As far as the kick and snare compression goes, turn down the makeup gain. Compressors make things quieter, there is a makeup gain knob to bring the volume back up after the compression, it's obviously set too high.

I think you would be suprised how quiet mixes really are.
 
BeniRose said:
I didn't read your last comment there about mixing not being that loud. I know that they get a bit louder in mastering, but I still can't help but feeling that my mix is way too quiet, and feel extremely non-dynamic because my volume is so low. Maybe I'll mix it the way you suggest (turn down everything else so the drums not clipping) and then post it, along with a song in a similar genre, and you can tell me if it's all in my head, and if not, give me some advice. I appreciate all the advice you've given me so far!
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Most of my mixes have an RMS volume of around -20dbfs. Most commercial (metal) CDs have an RMS volume of around -10dbfs.

Believe me, if you are in danger of clipping anything in the mix, your mix is not too quiet.
 
Farview said:
Most commercial (metal) CDs have an RMS volume of around -10dbfs.
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Hey man, what does it means? I thought the final product (commercial CD) is at 0db (loudness war, haha). Would you mind to explain?

Benirose, mixes volume should not be compared to the finished CDs. Learn this from Farview: Use a Master fader as an indicator to know when you're mixing too loud. And don't abuse signal processors.
 
Farview said:
As far as the kick and snare compression goes, turn down the makeup gain. Compressors make things quieter, there is a makeup gain knob to bring the volume back up after the compression, it's obviously set too high.

I think you would be suprised how quiet mixes really are.
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Yeah, I'd put the make-up gain back at 0 db, but it'd still be way louder than without compression, which doesn't make sense to me. However, I just took a look at that preset and it has Auto-gain set to 0db (rather than off, like the one I ended up using) so maybe that's what it was. I was sitting there tweeking everything going "wtf, why is this still louder", but i didn't notice the auto-gain before.

Maybe you're right. Anyways, I'm about to upload that mix so you guys can tell me I'm crazy.
 
Farview said:
I'll save you the search.

The drums peak level should be the loudest thing in the mix. If they have to be clipping in order to hear them, everything else is too loud. Turn down the other tracks.

If that is too much of a pain, create a group buss and route everything else to that and turn the group buss down.

If you are not compressing the kick and snare, I would try that as well.

Mixes are not supposed to be as loud as fully mastered finished products. There is another process that the mixes go through to get that final volume. Don't try to do that in the mix, just make everything sound good.
Click to expand...

I wish someone would have told me that many years ago. I just heard it here a couple of years ago and it has made all the difference!
 
Farview said:
Most of my mixes have an RMS volume of around -20dbfs. Most commercial (metal) CDs have an RMS volume of around -10dbfs.

Believe me, if you are in danger of clipping anything in the mix, your mix is not too quiet.
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Could you explain this a bit more. I'm not really sure what RMS is, but I see there's peak and RMS levels in Wave Burner. It looks like logic's meters are Peak, and I'm not sure how to change them to RMS.
 
You might need to get a different meter plugin. The meters in the digital world are peak meters. RMS roughly means average.


It doesn't matter. You don't need to know what your RMS level of your mix is. You just need to know that you don't need to try to get your mix loud.


The mix levels don't matter as long as it sounds good. You bring the levels up in mastering.
 
Just wanted to let you guys know you pretty much saved my life as far as mixing goes on this one. I gave the advice a shot and stopped trying to mix loud and just made it mix well with no clipping. Not only does it allow me to bring the drums up in my mix and make everything sound clearer, but when I run the mix through a quick preset in WaveBurner, it ends up sounding just as loud and full (but of course still not as good) as commercial recordings. I can't believe I've been mixing all these years and didn't know to mix quietly, maybe that's why my studio's so empty :p I guess I still have a lot to learn!
 
BeniRose said:
I can't believe I've been mixing all these years and didn't know to mix quietly,
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You aren't mixing quietly. You are mixing at the proper levels.

If you were mixing on a console, you would be shooting for a mix that averaged at line level (because that would be 0dbVU on the meters). Line level ITB is somewhere around -18dbfs. In other words, if you were mixing on a console, your equivelant mixes would be riding +9dbVU on the console meters. The mixer would be pegged. Obviously, that's not the way to do it.
 
steve.h said:
Semi-related question: how far up did you turn the volume on your speakers? Say on a scale of 1 - 10.
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I suppose it's something like turning it up by 2 would get me to a proper mixing volume. But it's not like I'm an idiot and I didn't know I could turn my monitors up. It was that I'm an idiot and I didn't know that my mixes weren't supposed to be that loud. And as Farview said, not quiet, but proper levels, I almost didn't feel right when I had typed "quiet", but hopefully you understood what I was saying, and you did. I know it's not "mixing quiet", since that's actually how you're supposed to mix, it's just quieter than mastered recordings.
 
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