Will Analog Multitracks ever be made again?

[Beck]

when I said gimmick I meant this current crop of new vinyl sales...shit you can fly a hot air balloon if you want, it'll be no threat to the airline industry.

Yeah, I got that part, and you make a valid point. However, many aren’t aware of the vinyl community that’s always been here apart from any recent trends. I thought it worth mentioning.

also I think you're thinking to much about it...the PC is just an entertainment system...its the hifi or tv or radio of our generation...no more, no less, painting it as our master is histrionics, enjoyable histrionics but nevertheless

It's only that I have been thinking about it, discussing the issue, and watching it develop for a long time... since the 80's. IMO, most people don't think about things nearly enough and certainly don't see the big picture. The PC is whatever it is to each individual, and too often it's his master. He goes to it for work, information, sex, recording, entertainment of every kind… you name it, people think they can find it there. They think they have gained or possess something. But for many of us it’s like the cartoon version of real life, and we’re amazed at how many can’t tell the difference between a cartoon and real life.

That goes for sound too. People think they’ve downloaded a song or an album, but what they have is a “demo version” of the real thing. They can usually tell if they like a song or not, but they don’t take the next step, which is buying a better quality format. If the record companies repeated what I’m saying here they might just save themselves.

I think digital will improve, I also think the industry will eventually change and for the better, it'll just be a bumpy road getting there..all imho of course.

but analogue will be something old men stare at in the same regard my grandfather did with steam engines

Digital improving is always cool. I use it for what it can do, but I've heard that first sentence repeated almost verbatim since the 80's. That's part of the digital mythos. At some point most people stopped waiting for it to improve and simply lowered their listening standards instead. That’s why so many can still hear the difference between formats.

I’m really not that old, but it wouldn’t matter because teens are discovering analog. These things aren’t for old men; they are for enlightened men and women of all ages that are striving for excellence… something beyond the status quo.

Yet, for the reasons I listed in my first post in this thread, it’s not digital keeping manufacturers from making new analog decks; it’s vintage analog decks that never die. It’s the earliest digital formats that are all gone, including ADAT, which at the time was thought to have been handed to mankind by God himself (if you were to believe the brochure). Analog has outlasted it and countless other digital solutions. I’ve watched them all come and go over the years. After a while one can’t help but yawn at the latest frantic announcement of the next big thing. You learn to stick with what works and ignore trends.

~Tim

 

[ez_willis]

It’s the earliest digital formats that are all gone, including ADAT, which at the time was thought to have been handed to mankind by God himself (if you were to believe the brochure).

it was the advancement in processing power that made the ADAT obsolete. i started on 'em. they kicked ass right up until i didn't need them anymore because the computer i built could handle the recording.

personally, i have to wonder why in the hell anyone would WANT to record on to a cassette of 1/4" tape. it does NOT sound better AND it's a pain in the ass. The ONLY reason i can think of is poeple are afraid of change.

 

[jjones1700]

You've got a damn good point there Tim. Makes one wonder why digital formats don't have the longevity of vinyl or tape.

 

[Beck]

it was the advancement in processing power that made the ADAT obsolete. i started on 'em. they kicked ass right up until i didn't need them anymore because the computer i built could handle the recording.

personally, i have to wonder why in the hell anyone would WANT to record on to a cassette of 1/4" tape. it does NOT sound better AND it's a pain in the ass. The ONLY reason i can think of is poeple are afraid of change.

I used ADAT as well, but they became obsolete as I was waiting for them to arrive, sonically speaking. The 20-bit were a bit better, but still no cigar. Don't forget, people were still mastering to analog at that time. That didn't hurt.

If you can't think of other reasons why so many people prefer analog you’re really not using your imagination then, EZ. People may hear things differently. And people like me are recordists period. If anyone wants to know anything about digital they can ask me, but I like the analog forum because digital bores me… it’s a doodle… nothing really. I’m the pragmatist that uses whatever works.

~Tim

 

[Beck]

You've got a damn good point there Tim. Makes one wonder why digital formats don't have the longevity of vinyl or tape.

Planned obsolescence. Version 2 with its real or imagined improvements is already largely completed when version 1 is released. The DAW model makes it much easier to control the market. Between OS, hardware and programs it’s an endless game of update and upgrade. I have a 20-year-old reel-to-reel that works perfectly as it always has. If I had a 20-year-old PC… well no one has a 20-year-old PC that they would go to for recording.

~Tim

 

[jjones1700]

Planned obsolescence. If I had a 20-year-old PC… well no one has a 20-year-old PC that they would go to for recording.

~Tim

Wanna make a bet? I've still got a Tandy 1000 and a Commodore 64. Why? I haven't a damn clue....

 

[kcearl]

Yeah, I got that part, and you make a valid point. However, many aren’t aware of the vinyl community that’s always been here apart from any recent trends. I thought it worth mentioning.

Oh Im aware..I live in big cities and they tend to have one or two vinyl outlets..always have, and of course dance community and DJs have kept much of the "new" vinyl industry alive over the years...and probably still do

It's only that I have been thinking about it, discussing the issue, and watching it develop for a long time... since the 80's. IMO, most people don't think about things nearly enough and certainly don't see the big picture. The PC is whatever it is to each individual, and too often it's his master. He goes to it for work, information, sex, recording, entertainment of every kind… you name it, people think they can find it there. They think they have gained or possess something. But for many of us it’s like the cartoon version of real life, and we’re amazed at how many can’t tell the difference between a cartoon and real life.

The PC is no more than a glorified telephone, video player, hifi rolled onto one..if people have social problems they will use whatever is needed to attain what they want..like pornography..in fact I think the rumour/myth was that the internet contains two thirds pornography...completely false..its around 12% (and Ive seen it all )...I wonder how many dvds or videos are/were porn??

I love my PC and spend more time on it than anything else..but its only time I shared between TV,watching movies, playing games, listening to music before I owned it

That goes for sound too. People think they’ve downloaded a song or an album, but what they have is a “demo version” of the real thing. They can usually tell if they like a song or not, but they don’t take the next step, which is buying a better quality format. If the record companies repeated what I’m saying here they might just save themselves.

I dont disagree with you...music has become throwaway due to this inability to distinguish between decent recordings..I remember falling in love with songs months after hearing them because suddenly I was discovering different sounds on the tracks..now its listen to the singles..stick the best track on a playlist and fuck the rest

I think this will change..I think it has to

Digital improving is always cool. I use it for what it can do, but I've heard that first sentence repeated almost verbatim since the 80's. That's part of the digital mythos. At some point most people stopped waiting for it to improve and simply lowered their listening standards instead. That’s why so many can still hear the difference between formats.

like I said Im not pro digital...nor do I think it will be the last format..I know it wont be analogue as it stands..its time has come and gone imho

I’m really not that old, but it wouldn’t matter because teens are discovering analog. These things aren’t for old men; they are for enlightened men and women of all ages that are striving for excellence… something beyond the status quo.

or someone with the time and money lest we not forget..

Im fairly affluent...theres no way Ill be buying analogue gear over digital..unless I get bloody good

Yet, for the reasons I listed in my first post in this thread, it’s not digital keeping manufacturers from making new analog decks; it’s vintage analog decks that never die. It’s the earliest digital formats that are all gone, including ADAT, which at the time was thought to have been handed to mankind by God himself (if you were to believe the brochure). Analog has outlasted it and countless other digital solutions. I’ve watched them all come and go over the years. After a while one can’t help but yawn at the latest frantic announcement of the next big thing. You learn to stick with what works and ignore trends.

~Tim

this i dont agree with..its price and demand not because they wont die..sorry, you just sound like a romantic now

 

[ez_willis]

I used ADAT as well, but they became obsolete as I was waiting for them to arrive, sonically speaking. The 20-bit were a bit better, but still no cigar. Don't forget, people were still mastering to analog at that time. That didn't hurt.

pretty sure Primus recording StSoC on a 16-bit. Could be wrong but i don't think so. they cd sounds fucking amazing.

 

[pianodano]

As much as I wish decks would be manufactured again, I agree with most of you and say that they would be price prohibitive.

So is the consensus that it would be price prohibitive ? But in relation to what ? Yesterdays dollars ? Todays dollars ?


http://www.techtraders.com/Prices/Recorder_Prices.html

High fidelity tape recorders always were prohibitively expensive. They were built expressly for money making studio operations to earn money with.

 

[ez_willis]

So is the consensus that it would be price prohibitive ? But in relation to what ? Yesterdays dollars ? Todays dollars ?

that is really dumb.

 

[samth3mancgp]

I have a 20-year-old reel-to-reel that works perfectly as it always has. If I had a 20-year-old PC… well no one has a 20-year-old PC that they would go to for recording.

~Tim

Hahhahahahaha! Probably one of the best arguments that has come up yet in this thread. You can never keep up with computer technology getting better. Digital makes so much more money for the companies because the Digital audio can technically always be improved as computer technology is improved. Analog has reached it's "perfection", where as digital can always technically be improved.

I'm kinda in the same boat with Great Cobb.. I'm only in my teens and I'm definitely not listening to vinyl, or recording to tape because of nostalgia, or because it's what I'm accustomed to or prefer. I just want to learn about all kinds of different formats of recording. I can hear the differences between the two and have my reasons for liking analog and digital. I really like the sound of analog better. A song recorded at 15ips just sounds right to me. I like digital just as much because of how flexible and creative you can be with it. The ability to Comp together tracks is great and keep multiple takes of the same thing and choose the ones you like best is awesome. I am still new to analog, so I personally haven't experimented much with how creative it can be, but i've heard much brighter people than myself do amazing things with only 4 tracks.

 

[SteveM]

Hahhahahahaha! Probably one of the best arguments that has come up yet in this thread. You can never keep up with computer technology getting better. Digital makes so much more money for the companies because the Digital audio can technically always be improved as computer technology is improved. Analog has reached it's "perfection", where as digital can always technically be improved.

I'm kinda in the same boat with Great Cobb.. I'm only in my teens and I'm definitely not listening to vinyl, or recording to tape because of nostalgia, or because it's what I'm accustomed to or prefer. I just want to learn about all kinds of different formats of recording. I can hear the differences between the two and have my reasons for liking analog and digital. I really like the sound of analog better. A song recorded at 15ips just sounds right to me. I like digital just as much because of how flexible and creative you can be with it. The ability to Comp together tracks is great and keep multiple takes of the same thing and choose the ones you like best is awesome. I am still new to analog, so I personally haven't experimented much with how creative it can be, but i've heard much brighter people than myself do amazing things with only 4 tracks.

I don't think most anyone here is using tape for reasons of nostalgia. It's the sound. Most everyone has used digital or uses digital. I did for six years. And neither format is easier to operate or maintain than the other IMO. Until you get into the editing, then of course digital is easier.

I have a deck that is 30+ and it sounds fantastic.

 

[lonewhitefly]

the vinyl resurgence is very real. some may think these are personal anecdotes, but they will prove to be the hints that showed the future.

here in austin, tx, you could start a successful business very easily selling vinyl. you could not selling CDs. it is as simple as that. even the big guys cannot sell CDs anymore (borders books has stopped selling them and best buy is now carrying vinyl). it is silly to think that this "comeback" or whatever you call it has anything to do with nostalgia. it has more to do with novelty. there are kids out there that have never purchased music in a physical format before and now they have access to vinyl - it's quite an experience on many levels.

the CD is committing suicide.

 

[kcearl]

the vinyl resurgence is very real. some may think these are personal anecdotes, but they will prove to be the hints that showed the future.

here in austin, tx, you could start a successful business very easily selling vinyl. you could not selling CDs. it is as simple as that. even the big guys cannot sell CDs anymore (borders books has stopped selling them and best buy is now carrying vinyl). it is silly to think that this "comeback" or whatever you call it has anything to do with nostalgia. it has more to do with novelty. there are kids out there that have never purchased music in a physical format before and now they have access to vinyl - it's quite an experience on many levels.

the CD is committing suicide.

yeah 380 million sales versus less than 2 million..


its called a niche market..it'll never be anything much more than that..its always been there

 

[jjones1700]

So is the consensus that it would be price prohibitive ? But in relation to what ? Yesterdays dollars ? Todays dollars ?


http://www.techtraders.com/Prices/Recorder_Prices.html

High fidelity tape recorders always were prohibitively expensive. They were built expressly for money making studio operations to earn money with.

Yes. Tascam and Fostex made somewhat affordable multi-trackers. Look at the 38 and the TSR-8. They weren't within reach of everyone when they were being produced, but they sure as well weren't going to require a 2nd mortgage to pay for.

 

[ofajen]

With digital, one can take pure static and manipulate it into some twisted song with all of the plug-ins and the like.

You might be amused to know that back in the spring of 1983, the first recording assignment in my first electronic music class was to use, as a sound source, only a one second segment of tape with a recording of white noise. If course, we could book time in the studio with multiple tape machines with varying numbers of tracks and we had our own tape supplies. The range of things the class came up with was amazing. All of the plug-ins were 1/4" TS, as I recall.

Cheers,

Otto

 

[dodgeaspen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pianodano
So is the consensus that it would be price prohibitive ? But in relation to what ? Yesterdays dollars ? Todays dollars ?

ez_willis Quote: that is really dumb.
I understand what pianodanois trying to say. When my 38 was made back in the early 80's it went for about $2,500.00 with today's economy it would cost me over $6,500 new. From what I understand when my DBX 150 Noise Reduction units were being sold new they were about $700.00 now I have bought my last three from junkbay for $20.00 to $25.00 including shipping.
Did I chime in misunderstanding what you both were talking about?

 

[Beck]

this i dont agree with..its price and demand not because they wont die..sorry, you just sound like a romantic now

Don’t be sorry… I am a romantic. It often comes with the territory… musician, writer and all that, ya know. Music to me is fundamentally spiritual and life in general is quite romantic through my eyes.

However, I’m not a romantic or particularly nostalgic about equipment, except perhaps for a guitar that was passed down to me or something like that. Otherwise gear is just a tool…. a means to an end.

Analog machines last forever because they are built well and can be restored relatively inexpensively compared to the cost of a new one. There’s really nothing romantic about that, or anything to agree or disagree with there. People buy analog decks and can literally pass them on to the next generation. The guy who bought a deck for a given studio may be dead, but his apprentice is still maintaining and using it. A machine may go through many owners and most do.

In contrast, about the only way a new DAW can outlast its owner before being considered obsolete is if the owner gets hit and killed by a truck the day after buying it. The social pressure for people to stay current with software releases and such is enormous.

That being said, there are people that look at a vintage machine like a classic car, and they like collecting and restoring things, which is a perfectly valid reason buy analog gear and interact on an analog forum. Just keep in mind some of use were artists first and always will be artists first. There are many different reasons for people to prefer analog… there’s no one right answer.

 

[The Great Cobb]

analog

Analog seems to be gaining popularity to me. When i think about all the bands i know around town, and the ones ive found online that are really writing some good songs and putting out some really entertaining stuff, you know, people with genuine passion, they are almost all using analog with digital mixing. Now, before anyone thinks im saying this is the only thing happening right now, im not. Im just surprised that people feel that its so dead when all i can see is people seeking it out. There are a couple of studios in town that are always booked solid who do very analog heavy projects. I have small bands constantly coming to me asking if i will record them because they know i have access to tape machines. When im talking to other musicians and we get on the subject of recording they are always really interested in analog tape and many have ended up buying their own reel to reels, or are busy searching around for a 388 as we speak. Of course, they are all bringing it into digital to edit, but thats the way you get the best of both worlds. After all this i guess i just dont feel that interest in analog recordings is going away anytime soon, no matter what manufacturers dictate, no matter what anyone says or does.

It doesnt really matter to me what the mainstream thinks or does. I dont feel the urge to keep up with the times or always be state of the art production techniques. There may be many many project studios that use digital solely that sound great, but from what ive seen anyone whos got a record planned that they put their blood sweat and tears into writing, always wants to record it onto a tape, even at the extra cost of a few reels of 2".

Keep in mind before responding angrily, this is just what ive seen in the bands that i know either around here or that ive met online. And even if that is a "niche", i see zero negative connotation in that word. In fact, i find "niches" to be exciting and interesting spawning points for unique passion and brilliance.

 

[The Great Cobb]

Ez willis

Hey EZ, is that you in the melon sweater? If so you are getting a friend request from me.