That's common for n00bs. Limb independence is the first hurdle a beginning drummer has to overcome. But way dumber people than you can do it, so you'd be fine. It just takes a little practice. Try it without drums. Tap 8 counts with your hi-hat hand, tap 4 counts with your kick foot.
The Fake Drums Tone Thread
- Thread starter JDOD
- Start date
That's common for n00bs. Limb independence is the first hurdle a beginning drummer has to overcome. But way dumber people than you can do it, so you'd be fine. It just takes a little practice. Try it without drums. Tap 8 counts with your hi-hat hand, tap 4 counts with your kick foot.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Not sure how that makes you a desk?
I'm not a capable drummer. Not the least bit! But for me, the point of getting a kit would be to learn drums--with the advantage of easy editing in MIDI. I think this may be my next project. I farted around with bass for twenty years, playing it the way a guitarist does, then got serious and really studied the instrument. It has improved my music in every way. I'd like to think learning drums might have the same impact.
minerman
Tonetard
Shan dude, an e-kit will help you with your fake drums because you'll have a lot better understanding of how a drummer would play something. Another big plus (for me...lol), is you can edit the midi afterward, so in short, you can fix your mistakes....
For me, just being able to see the hits in the midi editor, & compare 'em to what I'd been doing programming 'em was a big thing...
While I'm still shit as a drummer, my little e-kit has helped me quite a bit dude...YMMV...
ShanPeyton
Member
I like to positive motivation here guys thanks. I am totally on board with it. Just a matter of coming up with a rental or finding a suitable kit with the funds become available. My Nephew also has a pretty decent Mapex kit that he never uses, but i can't see his dad letting him parting with it. hahaha.
Greg, that's a good tip man. I should try that out!
in the meantime and in between time it's Ezd for me.
Greg, that's a good tip man. I should try that out!
in the meantime and in between time it's Ezd for me.
BroKen_H
Re-member
There is one advantage to an e-kit that people who play both real and fake can tell you: There are no rim hits...I set my rims on the four toms to play cowbell/cymbals so I have three crashes (with the two e-cymbals), the ride, a splash, china and cowbell. That way if you accidentally travel a rim in your fill, it just sounds like an extra cymbal crash usually. 
That's not an advantage. Ever heard of rim shots? I guess not. If you're smacking rims unintentionally, you need to work on your bad technique instead of thinking of it as an e-kit blessing.
That's great, now work on you technique.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
So this thread seems to be all about technique and not about actual tone... how to get the damn things to SOUND real, assuming you have basic 4-limbs programming down to a reasonable level using common sense and years of listening to real drummers do real things.
But someone who actually mics an actual kit would know to do (or not do) A, B and C to their recording/s, or to get their recordings, but we fake drummers (and when I say "we" I mean "me"
) are left with a gazillion possible parameters to adjust in our VSTI interfaces, and, absent actual drum engineering experience, only a vague idea, based on how we treat other sound sources, of what to do with them.
Seems to me I'm forever fiddling with snare drum samples and sample combinations, balance between top, bottom, overhead and room virtual "mics", pitch controls, envelopes, compression, reverb etc. all in the pursuit of a decent snare sound like the ones I hear the real drummers & good recorders here get from their real drums - but I'm never totally happy that I get it right.
That's what I hoped this thread would be about - not how to program, but how to make the programmed meisterwerk SOUND real.
But someone who actually mics an actual kit would know to do (or not do) A, B and C to their recording/s, or to get their recordings, but we fake drummers (and when I say "we" I mean "me"
) are left with a gazillion possible parameters to adjust in our VSTI interfaces, and, absent actual drum engineering experience, only a vague idea, based on how we treat other sound sources, of what to do with them.Seems to me I'm forever fiddling with snare drum samples and sample combinations, balance between top, bottom, overhead and room virtual "mics", pitch controls, envelopes, compression, reverb etc. all in the pursuit of a decent snare sound like the ones I hear the real drummers & good recorders here get from their real drums - but I'm never totally happy that I get it right.
That's what I hoped this thread would be about - not how to program, but how to make the programmed meisterwerk SOUND real.
minerman
Tonetard
So this thread seems to be all about technique and not about actual tone... how to get the damn things to SOUND real, assuming you have basic 4-limbs programming down to a reasonable level using common sense and years of listening to real drummers do real things.
But someone who actually mics an actual kit would know to do (or not do) A, B and C to their recording/s, or to get their recordings, but we fake drummers (and when I say "we" I mean "me"
Seems to me I'm forever fiddling with snare drum samples and sample combinations, balance between top, bottom, overhead and room virtual "mics", pitch controls, envelopes, compression, reverb etc. all in the pursuit of a decent snare sound like the ones I hear the real drummers & good recorders here get from their real drums - but I'm never totally happy that I get it right.
That's what I hoped this thread would be about - not how to program, but how to make the programmed meisterwerk SOUND real.
Hey dude, I'm about to hit the sack, but gimme 'til tomorrow sometime & I'll try to help as best I can....
BTW, what drum program(s) do you use, & what daw??? If we use the same thing(s), we can swap project files...
Talk to you tomorrow, & check your pm's....
.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
...I spent 10 minutes trying to think of something clever in return. I got nothing. You win. Good day sir.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I dunno what drum apps/samples other people are using...but all the packs I have SOUND very real....because they are real, recorded drums. We're not talking some Roland drum machine or what have you...these are actual drums recorded in top studios with top gear.
If anyone is having trouble getting a good *sounding* kit with the current crop of sampled drum packs...you're doing something wrong then.
I think people overthink this shit and feel compelled to take the provided drum samples/tones and completely redo them, rather than just lightly tweak them for their use....and that's whey they spend hours dialing in "THE" snare sound...never quite getting it.
IMO....with most of the provided kits/samples, the trick is to strip away some of the additional tracks/channels, because most of the sample pack manufacturers will try to make each kit/sample sound larger than life...like they give you 5 different ambiance/room options and 3 compressed options. Turn off half that shit, and see what you have, before you do any of your tweaking.
So really....when it comes to actual "tones", most modern sample packs give you plenty of good stuff to work off of...it shouldn't be too hard tweaking it to suit your taste.
Now...AFA get the *grooves* to sound real...that's more about sequencing skills, and that's something a lot of people fall short on, and that's what makes their drums sound "fake"...but the actual drum tones are already there for you in spades.
minerman
Tonetard
So this thread seems to be all about technique and not about actual tone... how to get the damn things to SOUND real, assuming you have basic 4-limbs programming down to a reasonable level using common sense and years of listening to real drummers do real things.
But someone who actually mics an actual kit would know to do (or not do) A, B and C to their recording/s, or to get their recordings, but we fake drummers (and when I say "we" I mean "me"
Seems to me I'm forever fiddling with snare drum samples and sample combinations, balance between top, bottom, overhead and room virtual "mics", pitch controls, envelopes, compression, reverb etc. all in the pursuit of a decent snare sound like the ones I hear the real drummers & good recorders here get from their real drums - but I'm never totally happy that I get it right.
Yeah man, I'm in the same boat, I do fuck with the vsti's knobs/controls quite a bit at times, but one thing I've started doing is to turn off all fx (reverb, compression, everything), & just listen to the "raw" drum sounds...I've got a few clips from Greg & Rami that I use for reference, & I try to get the "raw" vsti to sound as close to those as possible...I know that's pretty vague, but it's honestly what I start out with 99% of the time...
I rarely use a vsti's room/ambience sounds either, I usually send all kit pieces to a couple 'verbs (with varying levels for each piece), trying to make the song as a whole sound as it was being played/recorded in the same space/room...
Most of the drum samples I use are recorded really well, & don't need a shit-ton of processing. I used to over-process all my fake drums, but the past little while, I've been consciously trying not to do that, as again, most of the vsti's I have are recorded pretty well, with good gear...
I mostly use Toontrack stuff, but I do have other drum vsti's too. The main reason I use TT is most of the kits are pretty much mapped all the same, & it's really easy to swap something out here/there for a different sound if I wanna...
A big gripe I have with all my fake drums is the hi-hat & cymbals. For me, they just never sound natural. IE: the hh I usually use has like 6-8 different articulations, which is cool, but, a real hh has probably 10 times the varying sounds going from closed to fully open, so, it's a limitation IMHO, but is something I just have to deal with because I don't have another option right now...
BroKen_H
Re-member
Part of the reason it never sounds realistic is the lack of bleed.
I was playing with something from HugoR the other day and I noticed that it's really hard to just deal with ONE element. If you want to turn up the cymbals, you hit the overheads, and then the snare/hats/toms are all too loud. You turn down the kick and other things go down with it. It's a real battle, but they sound nice when you get it right. Fake cymbals that you deal with have no real bleed to them. You get like this perfect separation that's just unrealistic. Don't know how that makes it harder to make them sound good, but it seems to be. It took me 10 minutes to get a good sounding mix from the stems of his recorded drums. Takes me hours to get anything close.
Then, of course, there's the sticking issue. When you hit a cymbal in reality, it moves. When you hit a cymbal in reality, you use the flat to the side, or the flat head on, or the flat on the edge, or the tip in the center, or the tip near the edge, and they all sound different. Add to that that the cymbal is in a different plane as it moves and you've got a lot of variables that VSTs just don't cover...
I was playing with something from HugoR the other day and I noticed that it's really hard to just deal with ONE element. If you want to turn up the cymbals, you hit the overheads, and then the snare/hats/toms are all too loud. You turn down the kick and other things go down with it. It's a real battle, but they sound nice when you get it right. Fake cymbals that you deal with have no real bleed to them. You get like this perfect separation that's just unrealistic. Don't know how that makes it harder to make them sound good, but it seems to be. It took me 10 minutes to get a good sounding mix from the stems of his recorded drums. Takes me hours to get anything close.
Then, of course, there's the sticking issue. When you hit a cymbal in reality, it moves. When you hit a cymbal in reality, you use the flat to the side, or the flat head on, or the flat on the edge, or the tip in the center, or the tip near the edge, and they all sound different. Add to that that the cymbal is in a different plane as it moves and you've got a lot of variables that VSTs just don't cover...
minerman
Tonetard
What drum vsti(s) are you using??? The reason I ask is Superior (and most of the other "big" drum vsti's) has bleed for all it's tracks/sounds/whatever. But, it is a pain in the ass to get those levels just right, but you can get pretty close. That's why I use some of Greg & Rami's raw drum tracks as reference. Matter of fact, I even pm'd Greg about this very thing a while back, & he sent me some of his raw drum recordings, no processing at all, just what his mics had captured. So it is possible to get pretty close, but obviously it's not gonna be 100%...
I agree, & for me, it's the same issue with the hi-hats as well...Looking at the kit I use 99% of the time, there are about 12 articulations, & a real hi-hat would have many more sound variations, depending on how/where it's hit, how much it's open/closed, so IMO, this is really a big limitation, but again, it's all I have so I do the best I can with 'em...
BroKen_H
Re-member
Cool. I'm using SSD4 and I bet what you're talking about is there, I just have never bothered to look for it. Pick sound, play and render to my DAW. I'll have to give that a look. I've got to get SSD back on line now that I've got 7 back up and running after the 10 fiasco.
Yeah. It's like trying to do 24 bit color with an 8 bit palette. You've got 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and wide open. You've got 8-16 different sets of hits and 128 velocity variations (of which less than half are usable. Maybe someday they'll program some real physics into the cymbal movement in real time. Maybe someday they'll allow for 0-127 from the bell to the edge on some future trigger. Maybe pigs will fly (without a catapult)...
Yeah. It's like trying to do 24 bit color with an 8 bit palette. You've got 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and wide open. You've got 8-16 different sets of hits and 128 velocity variations (of which less than half are usable. Maybe someday they'll program some real physics into the cymbal movement in real time. Maybe someday they'll allow for 0-127 from the bell to the edge on some future trigger. Maybe pigs will fly (without a catapult
)...