The Fake Drums Tone Thread

andrushkiwt said:
yeah, it's the same kit every time, maybe a different cymbal or two, but that's all. I'm very used to how it sounds and particular velocities, but i think i'm lacking somewhat in dynamics. I need to save those 100's for choruses and final bangs...you know. I've been using 90's in verses, but the difference in energy between that the chorus that has 100 isn't enough for me. Yeah, it's all the context of my music and my drums. not a general statement, just in my exact scenario.
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Well...you also have the mixdown to use for that. Adjust the track levels in different song sections...etc.
I mean...varying the velocity is definitely a good way to go in general, but you can save some of the dynamics decisions for the mixdown too, that way you're not too bogged down with just doing it all during the drum track setup.

Not to mention...if you try then later, during mastering, to normalize too hard to get the levels up...you're kinda fighting your self....if that makes any sense.
 
i have never normalized anything once.

for mastering, i use a lightly-set compressor before the limiter. i push some gain w/ the compressor for about 3 db's (again, my equipment and settings are not diverse, so i have some standards that work for me and my situation, as we all probably do) then push the limiter for another 4dbs. but i think moving the drum velocities is the biggest factor - it's the closet to the "source" of the problem...so why not start there? once i get velocities nice and dynamic, i can worry about the levels and dynamics in the mix after. i'd rather start as close to the beginning as possible though.
 
Like I mentioned a few times, I edit the velocity of each hit...yes, it's tedious & takes a long time, but it's the only way I can think of my programmed drums to sound even remotely realistic...

Different drum vsti's do react differently to velocity. The Toontrack stuff is all pretty much the same across the board, one expansion pretty much reacts like any other. But NI's Modern Drums & 80's Drums act very different, I've found the hits need to be a certain level before they sound natural, so there's a bit of difference between most of 'em...
 
andrushkiwt said:
i have never normalized anything once.

for mastering, i use a lightly-set compressor before the limiter. i push some gain w/ the compressor for about 3 db's (again, my equipment and settings are not diverse, so i have some standards that work for me and my situation, as we all probably do) then push the limiter for another 4dbs. but i think moving the drum velocities is the biggest factor - it's the closet to the "source" of the problem...so why not start there? once i get velocities nice and dynamic, i can worry about the levels and dynamics in the mix after. i'd rather start as close to the beginning as possible though.
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Sounds like you have your working setup.
I was just somewhat surprised by the wide range of velocities you were talking about.
Like I said...an overall level "bump" up/down from verse to chorus, etc...is normal, I just wasn't seeing the huge 35% to 100% swings in a lot of modern Pop/Rock music....but I don't know all the songs you're doing, so do what you feel you have to, to make them work for you.
If sounds good to you...then the numbers don't matter. :)
 
minerman said:
Like I mentioned a few times, I edit the velocity of each hit...yes, it's tedious & takes a long time, but it's the only way I can think of my programmed drums to sound even remotely realistic...
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Not sure what you are using these days...but there are ways to make that less tedious, depending on your editor.

While I will manually adjust single hit velocities...there are times when I'll use a random velocity generator in the Drum Editor of my DAW...where I can set the center velocity, and the low/high points....select as many hits I want, and apply it.
I mean, it's as random as any drummer would play it. :)
Then, during playback, if I hear a hit here-n-there that is not sitting right in the blend...I'll go in and adjust that to taste by hand.
 
velocity generator..that's cool, i wonder if i have that. i'll check mine out later.

the 30% was in reference to a post from the first page. someone posted a shot the midi velocities for the song and it looked like some were in that range. but in the mix, it sounded good. i was just saying that maybe i should look into moving them lower than what i have been, not exactly to 30, but just lower.

aren't you using Superior Drummer miro? i feel like we've talked about it before...
 
andrushkiwt said:
aren't you using Superior Drummer miro? i feel like we've talked about it before...
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Yes...and yes. :)
What's the underlying question about SD...is it about editing the kits and the velocities...?

I don't do much processing stuff in the SD Mixer. I'll set some basic pan values, and maybe adjust some of the levels, or adjust the ambiance tracks (they always include way too much, IMO).
In the Construct window, I'll set up my kits...tune the drums, adjust envelopes, add some X-Drums to replace any kit elements that aren't working for me....and set some of the actual sample levels.

The grooves, the velocities...all that I do in my MIDI Drum Editor that is part of my DAW app.
That's where I have a Dynamics editor window where I can easily select lots of hits and apply velocity edits and/or generate random velocities within specific ranges, etc.

So it depends on your apps and what they provide AFA MIDI Drum Editing.

I think it's easy to fall into the numerical traps when working with a computer...everything has a number, etc...and you start adjusting stuff by the numerical values. Sometimes that's a necessity, and also a nice feature...because with things like say, L/R imaging...your room may fool you a bit, so if you can see the L/R numbers, you know what you have set with your pan, but for the most part...it's all done by ear, and it should differ from song to song.

Have you tried any other sample packs besides the one kit you are using (not even sure which one you are using)...?
I like the one-kit approach...'cuz it would be that way if you had a band with a drummer. He's not going to use a different kit for every song.
That said...I'm also loving the variety of great kits you can have with SD and EZD sample packs, and it's just as valid to use different flavors for different songs....if you happen to write/record a variety of song styles.
If you do predominantly one music style...then it makes more sense to stick with the sounds that fit that style alone.

I've got some tracking to do today...so I'm off to my studio as soon as I finish my late lunch...but I'll pop in again later on.
 
I think we are in agreement here. If changing the velocity actually triggers different samples, then the first level of editing has be of the individual MIDI notes in the drum track. That's what gets you to the tones and sounds you need. The second level of editing can be in the mixer of the DAW, where you can balance the levels of those tones against each other and against the other tracks in the mix.

For me, unfortunately, there is no way around hand-editing the MIDI notes for velocity as well as timing. It's time-consuming but necessary.
 
I don't know how to use anything like superior drummer or EZ drummer. Suppose I should look into it at some point.
 
What are you using now, JDOD? The clip you posted earlier sounded pretty good. EZ Drummer and the others are just VST plugins that you run inside the DAW.

Different programs have various song-building features. Personally, I just use EZD as a tone module and do all the MIDI programming in Reaper.
 
JDOD said:
I don't know how to use anything like superior drummer or EZ drummer. Suppose I should look into it at some point.
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:wtf: What the fuck are you using dude??? From all your clips I've heard, they sound like Toontrack sounds to me...
 
I don't use any particular programme. I just have a bank of single drum hits of varying intensity and style and I arrange them in Reaper.
 
Whatever works. The results don't sound half bad, but you'd save yourself a lot of time if you picked up something like EZD or SD.
 
so are the varying hits made by different people in different rooms on different kits? I've heard some of your tracks, but I can't recall the drum sound. SD comes with a really good kit, so it's not like you'd have to spend on expansions right away. hell, i've had it for a year and a half and i'm still using the stock kit (NY Avatar). I see it for $299 at the moment ($399 for the version with ALL 3 NY Avatar kits, which are $149 apiece).

If I do expand, i'll grab the Rock Warehouse - sounds like i'd get some better options for pieces. I'm tired of the cymbals
 
I have been using a Roland Handsonic to record sessions with my 11 year old on keys. I'm happy with the results, at least for fun recordings to share with the extended family.

It's a convenient way to record -- just have the hand sonic next to you at the mix position to sort of be a human click track.
 
Obi-Wan zenabI said:
I have been using a Roland Handsonic to record sessions with my 11 year old on keys. I'm happy with the results, at least for fun recordings to share with the extended family.

It's a convenient way to record -- just have the hand sonic next to you at the mix position to sort of be a human click track.
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I checked out some e-drums at Guitar Center this last weekend. I was considering buying a set to trigger responses in Superior Drummer, rather than writing MIDI notes manually. Still not sold on it, though I do see the value in that human feel.
 
andrushkiwt said:
I checked out some e-drums at Guitar Center this last weekend. I was considering buying a set to trigger responses in Superior Drummer, rather than writing MIDI notes manually. Still not sold on it, though I do see the value in that human feel.
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Just checked out your Soundcloud. Good vocals make or break music in your genre and yours sound great. What stood out to me were your arrangements -- they are intuitive and have good flow and build -- and I think that the creative experience of "writing" and creating drum beats and arrangements on a more physical drumset would be aligned with your creative process.

I picked up a used Roland TD6 for about $200, pedals and all. 10 years old, but the on board sounds are pretty good in a mix -- and I'm sure that used as a trigger for a modern set of sounds like SD, they'd be just awesome.
 
Obi-Wan zenabI said:
Just checked out your Soundcloud. Good vocals make or break music in your genre and yours sound great. What stood out to me were your arrangements -- they are intuitive and have good flow and build -- and I think that the creative experience of "writing" and creating drum beats and arrangements on a more physical drumset would be aligned with your creative process.

I picked up a used Roland TD6 for about $200, pedals and all. 10 years old, but the on board sounds are pretty good in a mix -- and I'm sure that used as a trigger for a modern set of sounds like SD, they'd be just awesome.
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hey, thank you! that's a good way to look at it. i'm slightly limited by either what the MIDI can and can't do, or by my inability to get it to do what i want it to do...so i see what you're saying. a real kit requires so much time and experience to get sounding as good as my programmed kit does, and i certainly don't have the time or space for that. So, I thought buying an e-kit was the best option. I'll certainly check out that Roland.

I'm guessing all i need is a USB out (or MIDI out, actually. which i'm sure they all have). but also i would want more toms and cymbals than what i see an the store. i was afraid of getting in the $1000 price range for what would be worth it to me.
 
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