The Fake Drums Tone Thread
- Thread starter JDOD
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BroKen_H
Re-member
Funny: One thing I do a lot that I just read is supposed to be "unrealistic"...I stomp the hats while I do fills to keep my rhythm. Often times you'll hear crash, hat, tom and kick all going at the same time. Just how I learned to keep in beat. When I don't kick the hats, I tend to speed up during the fills and then my timing's off when I get back to the beat...Been a struggle of mine since playing "Hawaii Five-0" on the trap in pep band circa 1978-79. Band teacher gave me the cue on stomping the left foot to keep the song from getting to 160 bpm after a while. 
liv_rong
Knows very little
Funny: One thing I do a lot that I just read is supposed to be "unrealistic"...I stomp the hats while I do fills to keep my rhythm. Often times you'll hear crash, hat, tom and kick all going at the same time. Just how I learned to keep in beat. When I don't kick the hats, I tend to speed up during the fills and then my timing's off when I get back to the beat...Been a struggle of mine since playing "Hawaii Five-0" on the trap in pep band circa 1978-79. Band teacher gave me the cue on stomping the left foot to keep the song from getting to 160 bpm after a while.
I don't think that's uncommon at all. Many drummers keep time with their hat foot while not hitting the hats with sticks. I do it all the time too. I just learned I have to move my foot away from the pedal if the sound is unwarranted/unwanted.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Yeah I do that all the time, or the kick will be going under the fill.. sometimes both.
But for me, those "programming taboos" have never sounded unrealistic, since I listen to plenty of bands that have two drummers and sometimes add a minimal second drum track myself, or additional percussion.
Mr Clean
AKA Teddy Wong
I'm new to drumming but I've learnt to keep count/time with my left foot. I also move it off the pedal if the hats aren't required. It made sense to me. Saying that, I'm still in the 1&2&3&4& stage. My brain is counting with my feet and arms. I'm guessing I'll surpass that at some point and be able to do fills, etc without losing/gaining time.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Right.
I think if you look at any grooves laid down by really good drummers...they can keep a lot of shit going with both feet and hands at the same time. I mean...it doesn't have to be real basic Ringo kind of drumming to maintain perfect realism.
That's why if you are not a top-level drummer, you might think "Oh I can't have that there in a MIDI sequence"...but it really can be possible.
Now shit like a MIDI groove were you are simultaneously hitting two cymbals, the snare and the hats...while doing a roll across the toms....
...well that's a Sequencing 101 no-no, and I think only the absolute newbs will make that mistake.Like liv_rong said...it's purely a taste decision to keep stomping on the hat or kick during fills.
Sometimes I'll leave that in a groove...but if it clutters the fill, I'll take it out...etc.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Now shit like a MIDI groove were you are simultaneously hitting two cymbals, the snare and the hats...while doing a roll across the toms....
I don't really see why it's considered a mistake not to try to trick the listener, though. Maybe it comes down to context/genre, but if the software will allow almost anything then you have all these new possibilities at your fingertips.. then why limit yourself to only beats that can be played by a dull pop drummer? If I used drum software I'd be more tempted to wear the programmer badge proudly, use it to explore new horizons etc.
Multitracking yourself IS a form of programming. One person cannot play all those instruments live in real time, so you're already subverting realism to an extent- why not just go all the way with it?
minerman
Tonetard
Ok here's some of my programmed drums, a cover I'm working on. This is my "Franken-Kit" using Superior, Steven Slate 3.5, all multi-out'ed to seperate tracks, then sent to a couple reverbs...I'm still working on the song as a whole, but I think the drums are pretty close...Lemme know what you think...
WP Cover
WP Cover 2
WP Cover
WP Cover 2
As much as I enjoy real acoustic drums, and I've recorded my fair share of "real" drums, I agree with the above.
All this stuff, samples, programming, drum machines, etc. ARE instruments in their own right. A human being is coming up with the musical concepts and "playing" them.
They are just not "traditional" instruments. This doesn't diminish the value that they have as being instruments.
Music has always been made on whatever instruments that have been available. Technology has widened the field of instruments at our disposal, it's silly to not use them in the fullest. There is no reason, nor rules that say that virtual instruments are only to be used to "mimic" the real thing.
I think if Jimi Hendrix were alive today, he'd embrace the world of virtual instruments, and be creating music, the likes of which we've never heard.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yup...that's exactly it...it comes down to context/genre.
You wanna do Hip Hop/Rap...or some Techno...etc...then the beat is anything you want it to be.
If you are doing a song that is fundamentally supposed to be a virtual 4-5 piece "band" playing Rock/Pop....then the instrumentation and arrangement will be more traditional to go with that vibe.
Also...there's some combinations that just don't sound right. I mean, the computer lets you do whatever your imagination wants, but I think it will come down to context and genre, a not so much just "do whatever you feel".
I've doubled up on Toms or Bass lines when I wanted that sound, and we often double or quadruple rhythm guitar tracks...even though it all steps away from the virtual 4-5 piece band idea.
The point I was making earlier...it's one thing to consciously add elements that bend the band reality...it's another thing when a newb simply has a lot of contradictory shit going on by accident.
I think that with everything...you first need to know the norms and how they go before you can effectively step outside of that in a conscious meaningful way...but I also know that these days a lot of home-rec/YT music is a concoction made of accidents, and mixes come together without any actual plan.
People will just slap shit together and on top of each other...and something comes out...that's how they write/record.
Again...not against experimentation..but I do believe you need to know the rules before you can break them with intent and not just by accident all the time.
That said...modern Pop these days is more like sound design rather than songwriting and arranging. Everything has to have 3 pounds of ear candy to make the cut. It's like...having a more traditional "band" type of arrangement doesn't cut it.
Not to mention...everything modern HAS to have some Hip Hop spice...EVERYTHING.
Yea yea! that's me!
I want to learn how NOT to "let it go at that" but rather to bear down on the feel and dynamics with some kind of realism. I rtfm plenty, but at 60+ and returning to music after trying to make an honest living (that's a lie if ever I typed one!) my old analog synths and newer hp laptop computer have a ton of studying to do on the topic in order to operate together. And now I find...
"WOW, (semi) realistic drum parts from plugins that I can string together to finally put down some scratch tracks I've had in my head for a couple generations. If only Cakewalk docs had a beginners' version for us old bastards!"
That's why this thread needs to BE! (without all the philosophy of whether it is or ain't yo baby!)
I'll continue to follow this forum for more of that technical shit! Thanks y'all!
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
That was what I was going to suggest. Hearing drums solo'd and in the context of the mix would be useful.
Here's an example of some drums I've done recently. I'm playing an Roland E-Kit (although I'm not a very good drummer yet!) triggering the EZDrummer2 main kit that I've tweaked a bit here and there. Still haven't completed the mix of the song yet. The drums are the stock sounds, no EQ/FX.
View attachment 96088
View attachment 96087
Here's a screenshot of the velocity for that part, if it helps to visualize it.
View attachment 96089
ok, this was cool to hear these different velocities solo and in context of the tune. Gives me a better idea of how that sounds for the song. I've always used 75% as my bottom velocity, and i think moving that down further would help the dynamics of my songs (well, obviously, but in solo they sound really really quiet). The verses you posted are what, 30% in some cases? (FYI, my midi maxes out at 100%, unlike 127% i see a lot of ppl declare).
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Mmmm...I don't think you can just assign percentage values to what's a good velocity range.
Really depends on the song, the intended loudness and feel, the tempo, and the kit you are using...and mostly your ears.
Some of my drum hits will hover in the 115-127 range....others in the 118-124 range...and some in the 58-72 range...etc...etc.
IOW...if you are playing a punchy Rock tune, and your drummer is hitting the Snare with velocities from 35 to 127 from hit to hit...get rid of that drummer. The hits have to be steadier than that!
If you are doing a very dynamic Jazz/ballad tune...then maybe the drums will really move up/down in their dynamics.
Also...the 127 is NOT a percentage value, it is a MIDI step value.
You can look at it as just a different thermometer...like Celsius and Fahrenheit. So....127 = 100%
MIDI uses 7-bit values...which go from 0 - 127 (128 steps)
Really depends on the song, the intended loudness and feel, the tempo, and the kit you are using...and mostly your ears.
Some of my drum hits will hover in the 115-127 range....others in the 118-124 range...and some in the 58-72 range...etc...etc.
IOW...if you are playing a punchy Rock tune, and your drummer is hitting the Snare with velocities from 35 to 127 from hit to hit...get rid of that drummer. The hits have to be steadier than that!
If you are doing a very dynamic Jazz/ballad tune...then maybe the drums will really move up/down in their dynamics.
Also...the 127 is NOT a percentage value, it is a MIDI step value.
You can look at it as just a different thermometer...like Celsius and Fahrenheit. So....127 = 100%
MIDI uses 7-bit values...which go from 0 - 127 (128 steps)
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
I understand, and I'm speaking (writing) in the context of my songs. I think moving down from a floor of 75% would help my own tunes. that's all....(?)
yes, i know a max is a max, whatever number they arbitrarily assign it. The point I was trying to make, which I guess I wasn't clear on, was that 127 will probably give you more options than 100. In my midi-editor, 100 lets me choose every 4, or so, digits. so, i have a total of about 25 "intensities" for hits. 127 would allow for more, i am assuming. unless that gap between hits jumps from some reason.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah..OK...that's fine.
I'm just saying you can't really set an arbitrary range going in...it's something that evolves as you work the song, the arrangement, and the production, purely by how it sounds.
If you work with just one kit...then maybe you can in your mind come up with specific ranges to always work in...but I don't find that to be a valid approach.
When I create a kit for a song...I'll save it. Then maybe on some other song, I'lll pull up that saved kit setup, and 9-out of 10 times, I'll have to adjust the whole thing for the new song.
IOW...the kit values may not be right for the next song.
If you use a variety of kits...then even more so...you can't just set numerical range values. Only your ears can guide you.
Like if you are playing a punchy Rock tune, and your drummer is hitting the Snare with velocities from 35 to 127 from hit to hit...get rid of that drummer. The hits have to be steadier than that!
If you are doing a very dynamic Jazz/ballad tune...then maybe the drums will really move up/down in their dynamics.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Right...because velocity isn't only about overall loudness.
Yes...it has a direct connection...but hit a drum gently, then turn up the track to a set "loudness"....and then hit a drum hard, and set that track to the same "loudness"...and it's two totally different sounds.
Velocity also affects the "snap" of the hits....how long the drum sticks/beaters stay on the heads/cymbals when hit.
Lower velocity can also give a softer feel, while snappier hits give you a live/punchy feel...and you can still alter the overall loudness of the drum track to taste.
You can hit with a lot of velocity and still hold on the heads...but generally, it's going to be snappier action with more velocity. Not sure what drummers actual call the amount of time hits stay on the heads...articulation...?
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
yeah, it's the same kit every time, maybe a different cymbal or two, but that's all. I'm very used to how it sounds and particular velocities, but i think i'm lacking somewhat in dynamics. I need to save those 100's for choruses and final bangs...you know. I've been using 90's in verses, but the difference in energy between that the chorus that has 100 isn't enough for me. Yeah, it's all the context of my music and my drums. not a general statement, just in my exact scenario.
yes Robus, i think you are right. Superior Drummer has a different sound altogether for a snare hit at 60 compared to it at 100 (or any other number really). The guy is actually hitting it softer or harder each time, I believe. it isn't just the volume of it, but the intensity of the hit.
yes Robus, i think you are right. Superior Drummer has a different sound altogether for a snare hit at 60 compared to it at 100 (or any other number really). The guy is actually hitting it softer or harder each time, I believe. it isn't just the volume of it, but the intensity of the hit.