Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

Farview said:
Something has to be keeping time and be 'on the grid'. The groove is from the interactions between the other instruments and 'time'. Without a consistent time, a groove really can't exist.

Even if you moved all the hats to just before the beat, you wouldn't accomplish anything other than moving the groove off the grid (because you don't hear the grid), and making your life harder in the process.
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thanks for the advice on high hat track and drum tracks against the grid. I appreciate it!
 
DM60 said:
It is not programming, it is writing drum parts. Programming is "If Y=X, then Z, else do A", that is programming.



I think some areas are close, but playing drums and how one writes drums to MIDI are not exactly the same.



3rd point, I could go either way, just always thought of it is about real drums, how to tune, skins, etc.
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Programming was definitely a term used a lot up through the 90s. People "programmed" a sequencer or a drum machine. It's basically synonymous with creating MIDI data of some type.
 
Farview said:
Something has to be keeping time and be 'on the grid'. The groove is from the interactions between the other instruments and 'time'. Without a consistent time, a groove really can't exist.

Even if you moved all the hats to just before the beat, you wouldn't accomplish anything other than moving the groove off the grid (because you don't hear the grid), and making your life harder in the process.
Click to expand...

My groove doesn't like to be on the grid. It's old school --- uses cash, doesn't even own a smartphone.
 
famous beagle said:
My groove doesn't like to be on the grid. It's old school --- uses cash, doesn't even own a smartphone.
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:D :thumbs up:
A groove isnt a groove if it is locked into some computer time.
Lots of real good old school musicians keep their own time, and yes, it does vary a bit.
 
RFR said:
:D :thumbs up:
A groove isnt a groove if it is locked into some computer time.
Lots of real good old school musicians keep their own time, and yes, it does vary a bit.
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If it isn't consistent, it won't groove. Yes, you can have a groove without computer precision, but not without consistency.

Either you've got a different definition of groove, or you have bought in to the notion that there is some sort of magic that old school drummers possess. And when I say "magic" I'm talking about the sort of thing Merlin does (which doesn't exist), not the metaphorical, "that performance was magical" kind of way.
 
I dont think Otis Redding's Dock of the bay was done with a click. And it does groove.

To me modern music done on a grid is "too" sterile and "perfect".

All I'm saying is good musicians have impeccable time, but not computer accurate.
 
Farview said:
If it isn't consistent, it won't groove. Yes, you can have a groove without computer precision, but not without consistency.

Either you've got a different definition of groove, or you have bought in to the notion that there is some sort of magic that old school drummers possess. And when I say "magic" I'm talking about the sort of thing Merlin does (which doesn't exist), not the metaphorical, "that performance was magical" kind of way.
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Heheh ... I was just trying to make a corny joke about living off the grid. :) I certainly know the value of a click track.

That said, I never listen with my eyes, and whenever I'm recording digitally, I don't care how it looks on the grid. I only care what it sounds like.
 
Meh. Its a reflection of the instant gratification crowd. Seemed in times past we managed to get drum sets, learned to play them and to record them and the band they were in in less than ideal conditions, with good results. So now, click away and instant drums! Cant play a whole song on guitar, no problems, click, click, click. Cant sing, no problems! Plug your mic into this.

Just not the same effort going into it and it sounds like it. JMO

Just because today's technologies allow anyone to "make" music, doesnt mean that everyone should. you dont have to look any further than the current state of "pop" music for proof of that.

Real drummer who loves putting in the hard work for results, I know, old school :thumbs up:
 
mdainsd said:
Meh. Its a reflection of the instant gratification crowd. Seemed in times past we managed to get drum sets, learned to play them and to record them and the band they were in in less than ideal conditions, with good results. So now, click away and instant drums! Cant play a whole song on guitar, no problems, click, click, click. Cant sing, no problems! Plug your mic into this.

Just not the same effort going into it and it sounds like it. JMO

Just because today's technologies allow anyone to "make" music, doesnt mean that everyone should. you dont have to look any further than the current state of "pop" music for proof of that.

Real drummer who loves putting in the hard work for results, I know, old school :thumbs up:
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Old school rocks. Literally. :) you just can't beat a real drumset. (See what I did there? ;) ) I'm grateful for the new technologies that are available. Some of em give some really sweet sounds. But you can't outclass a real kit played by a real drummer.
 
Even poorly recorded real drums are better than excellent sampled drum programing. And I've had the chance to work with some fine pro drummers. It's a joy. The whole vibe in the studio changes as well when a real drummer shows up. I don't know quite how to explain it but spirits lift.
( my opinion)
 
"I don't know quite how to explain it but spirits lift."

I do. Drums are the engine room of a band. If that engine is just running (repetitive )then thats the vibe, if its being driven everybody reacts.
 
Good way of putting it. But its true. As soon as the kit gets set up, you know it's about to go down. When the drummer kicks it off, your machine is going down the road. Before that point, you're just at idle.
:D
 
RFR said:
Even poorly recorded real drums are better than excellent sampled drum programing.
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Rubbish - what's a drum sample? A drum, usually a good one, in a room, usually a good one, hit by a drummer, usually a good one, recorded with a mic, usually a good one, into a preamp, usually a good one, delivered digitally.

The problem with sampled drums in most HR-level music is that the programmer usually doesn't know what they're doing and so it's repetitive, boring shite. It can be otherwise, it just isn't very often.

I take your point about "the vibe" with a real drummer, but a lot of people here, being home recorders, aren't recording in a band, don't have a drum kit, or the room to put it in, or the relationship with the neighbours to allow real drumming. Hence we use samples. Mostly badly, but it doesn't always HAVE to be.:spank:

That's MY opinion, and you're welcome... :laughings:
 
I'm sure there are programers who can program these excellent samples, recorded well in excellent rooms, but I'll bet they are drummers.
In the time it took to program the drums they could have just laid down an excellent track.
Real drums are better.
That's MY opinion, and you're welcome also.
:D
 
RFR said:
I'm sure there are programers who can program these excellent samples, recorded well in excellent rooms, but I'll bet they are drummers.
In the time it took to program the drums they could have just laid down an excellent track.
Real drums are better.
That's MY opinion, and you're welcome also.
:D
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Oh I agree, no doubt.. but I don't have that luxury. And I kind of enjoy seeing how "real" I can make my programmed drums. I have a lot of respect for drummers, actually - I doubt I'd be any good at it myself, but I'm getting OK at the programming... :D
 
RFR said:
I'm sure there are programers who can program these excellent samples, recorded well in excellent rooms, but I'll bet they are drummers.
In the time it took to program the drums they could have just laid down an excellent track.
Real drums are better.
That's MY opinion, and you're welcome also.
:D
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This is true. I have a very basic EZ Drummer program, with the basic stock junk kit, and I can make a pretty usable drum track with it. I have the actual drumming prowess to do it. No problem there. I know how to build a beat and fills that sounds like a real drummer because I am a real drummer. The problem is that it takes for-fucking-ever to do it. It's insane. I can't believe how much time and energy it takes to make fake drums sound real, but I do understand why some people have to do it that way. I can literally set up, tune up, mic up, and record the drum track faster than it takes to "write" the thing with EZ Drummer. So for me, real drums will never ever ever be obsolete. I like the results I get with my real drums better than anything I've heard from drum sample programs...even with me programming them.

But the EZ Drummer shit, for me, is pretty useful for writing and arranging. I can write my drum tracks, move shit around, and play with drumming ideas without actually having to beat on the drums for hours and hours. When I'm satisfied I just sit at the kit and track it for real with real drums. At that point it's like playing a cover song and I can just breeze through it. The "writing" was already done.

The plus side to all of this, if you're one of those "if-it-sounds-good-it-is-good" mongoloids, is that your listener, if you have one, doesn't give a shit about real drums vs fake drums. They can't tell the difference. You can spend hours adjusting velocities and timing hits or leave everything stagnant on the grid. They do not know the difference. All this making fake drums sound real is a first-world home recorder issue. Only we notice or care about shit like that. And for some genres, like modern metal, drums don't sound normal at all unless they sound like a robot playing a typewriter.
 
Where do people using E Kits to trigger samples in VSTi's fit in to all this?

I'm currently in this category while I'm learning drums with the future aim being real drums, mic'd up and recorded.

*EDIT* Obviously the drums will only be as good as the samples. I've been a long time user of EZDrummer and, not knowing any better for that time, learned to like the sound of the samples it provides. I'm thinking of a Christmas Upgrade to SSD4. Currently looking at videos and checking the samples out.
 
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