Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

cafehonda said:
Well, I would think that, since I posted here, I give at least 2 shits about the topic at hand. If I didn't, I wouldn't have.

Did you disagree with my basic premise? I think there can be value in ignoring the shit that doesn't matter to us.
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Well, your comment really had nothing to do with the general conversation, and seemed to be more like someone trying to be witty and clever than someone who really cared about the topic at hand. If I misunderstood you, then, I apologize.
 
I'm still transitioning. I have a nice set of Pearls that I've been working with at the church. You can imagine the problems recording a live drum set in a huge untreated room...so I don't.

When I started ('95) I was using Cakewalk and completely programming the drums using Soundfonts
When I got into Reason ('03), I just converted that over. But I started making sure I could play the drum parts.
Then came Record for Reason (which has been re-integrated into Reason) and I tried to mike the drums up, but didn't have an adequate room or adequate mikes or...so I started using the keyboard to play my lines in.
Then I moved ('08) and everything was in the church because of space restraints of the house we moved into, and went back to programming everything.
So last year, I pumped a bunch of money into a studio room in our new (larger) house and thought about bringing my drums home. Two problems. 1) Setting up and tearing down for every church service. and 2) Still a lot tight to fit them in here. So I ended up getting a V-kit. It's taken a while to get them to be comfortable (actually, they're still junk to play compared to a real kit) and I've been experimenting with SSD to get my drum lines in ACTUALLY instead of played of the piano or sequenced.

Still have some ground to cover to get things the way I'd like them, but yeah. Seriously agree with real drums being preferable. Sometimes life does not deal us a preferred hand....
 
I prefer real drums with a real player, but understand the need and practicality of sampled drums
Thank goodness for some of the well recorded samples out there.
This is a leap ahead of the Alesis HR16 I used to use years ago.

As to a drummer shortage, its been that way as long as I can remember. All the really good drummers I've worked with, usually were in two or three bands.

I dont think they are a dying breed at all.
 
Or, like me they played drums in one band and something else (bass for me) in another. Honestly, I've always been a keyboardist, and always played them, but not so much in bands for whatever reason. I've heard of lots of drummers that also play other instruments and play guitar or keys or whatever.
There was a three piece band in the late 70s that I listened to that had a drummer/lead guitarist. Don't remember the name, but the keyboard player would do some left hand thing on a keyboard that simulated drums while the lead solos were happening...Decent prog, though.
 
Resurrect said:
Well, your comment really had nothing to do with the general conversation, and seemed to be more like someone trying to be witty and clever than someone who really cared about the topic at hand. If I misunderstood you, then, I apologize.
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It was a direct response to the ridiculous notion that the subforums should be furthur hairsplit so that "real drummers" don't even have to look at "fake drum" threads.
 
I disagree with the notion to start a new forum for fake drums or separating out real from fake. There are discussions on fake drums that fit in with real drums and there are some that fit in with VSTs.

If you want to know whether to use a limiter on the kick, fake or real, put it in the drum section.

If you want remap your drums to a keyboard, put it in the VST section.
 
Chili said:
I disagree with the notion to start a new forum for fake drums or separating out real from fake. There are discussions on fake drums that fit in with real drums and there are some that fit in with VSTs.

If you want to know whether to use a limiter on the kick, fake or real, put it in the drum section.

If you want remap your drums to a keyboard, put it in the VST section.
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Agreed.

I initially stated that I thought the two could be separate and a possibility of doing so. Not like it would be a hard thing to do...

But in the end there is no real reason to. One thread may be about tuning drums and micing a kit. Another thread about programming samples. They are both still 'drums'.

I now see no point in adding a separate forum.
 
RFR said:
All the really good drummers I've worked with, usually were in two or three bands.

I dont think they are a dying breed at all.
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Yeah..I see the same thing.
Drummers who are band whores. :D
Really though...the good drummers are always going to get band gigs, and they'll juggle between 2-3 bands to fill out their calendars.

That said...in my local online musician classifieds, I also see a lot of drummers looking for band/gig situations...because there's not as much work to go around for the number of guys looking to play.
So I'm not seeing a drummer shortage around here.
 
I wasn't trying to say that we should have two different forums so, "Real drummers won't have to look at fake drummer posts." Though, I suppose the title of this thread does sorta imply that. lol.

I was trying to say that programs and loops and samples are a completely different worlds.
 
Lots of interesting ideas here, as usual.

FWIW, I agree that the biggest issue with using "fake" drums nowadays is in fact the process of sequencing/programming them. In fact, doing a great job of sequencing drums requires some knowledge/experience with playing drums yerself. I can always tell when someone who knows NOTHING about drums has sequenced a track: the "drummer" seems to have grown extra limbs.

Ultimately, what makes a great drum track played by a real drummer on real drums (not V-Drums or the like) is the human feel of the track. The reason I exclude V-Drums from that statement is because I still haven't come across any electronic kit (be it a straight-up complete kit from Roland or Yamaha or whomever or a hybrid kit using mesh heads & triggers feeding a Roland or Yamaha brain) that can accurately mimic the differences in tone/attack/resonance/etc. which occur when a human hits a real drum in different places, either on purpose or just due to natural variation.

And that is really the key word: variation. That's what makes sequencing drum tracks so difficult: programming the natural variations caused by human imperfection, both in terms of the strikes as well as the pocket, drifting in & out of the tempo and playing around it.

Those things CAN be mimicked by someone who is really good at sequencing and understands that variation is extremely important through what has become for me an enormous bag of tricks. But, I'm always learning new ones, like this great trick from master mix engineer Bobby Owinski. If this video doesn't flip on some light bulbs above yer heads, I'll be shocked, because it definitely gave me some ideas, and I've been sequencing drums for over 20 years. Thank GOD the samples are so high-quality these days.

Speaking of great samples, if anyone is looking for EXCELLENT drum sample sets, I *highly* recommend two companies: Nucleus SoundLab and The Loop Loft. GREAT sample sets from both companies at VERY reasonable prices. Check them out if you need some new samples.
 
Hmmm, I can't take the time to read the whole thread, but I have never recorded a real drum kit myself.

I don't have the space/neighbours for a a kit and to spend sufficient time on it to get as good as I want to be. That's the situation I am in along with lots of people in more densely populated countries like the UK where we can't afford to live in large detached properties.

This being the case, I have no choice but to use samples and just want a bit of help in how to make them sound good. From my limited drumming ability at at least trying and sequence my samples in a way that I can imagine, even if I wouldn't be able to play the beat.

Real drummers have a lot to offer when helping with how beats sound to make them sound real. Real drummers will most easily spot an Octopus Drummer and pick out things that don't sound convincing. Experienced drum sequencers will help you implement solutions to the problems that real drummers pick out.
 
There are genres that do not benefit from live drums (mostly). There are others that sound really corny when you sequence identical sounds in perfect sync. But I think there is some room for both in both if done well. Having said that, I agree with JDOD completely. This is home recording. Not everyone has the experience, budget (and often) neighbors to do live drum recording. Therefore we do what is necessary and sometimes we look for creative ways to sequence...
What I don't agree with is a cut and dried approach to either. Music is art. I've seen beautiful paintings that were made with a chisel. I've seen beautiful sand sculpture done with brushes. I've seen lots of intricate ice and wood sculpture done with a chainsaw. Yes, we should strive to do the best we can with what we have. But are we really to the point of separating the people who have to use sequenced drums in their pop/rock/country/whatever music into a separate forum that should have questions about EDM/rap/rave/etc.? Sorry, the whole topic sounds a bit elitist, IMO.
 
BroKen_H said:
There are genres that do not benefit from live drums (mostly). There are others that sound really corny when you sequence identical sounds in perfect sync. But I think there is some room for both in both if done well. Having said that, I agree with JDOD completely. This is home recording. Not everyone has the experience, budget (and often) neighbors to do live drum recording. Therefore we do what is necessary and sometimes we look for creative ways to sequence...
What I don't agree with is a cut and dried approach to either. Music is art. I've seen beautiful paintings that were made with a chisel. I've seen beautiful sand sculpture done with brushes. I've seen lots of intricate ice and wood sculpture done with a chainsaw. Yes, we should strive to do the best we can with what we have. But are we really to the point of separating the people who have to use sequenced drums in their pop/rock/country/whatever music into a separate forum that should have questions about EDM/rap/rave/etc.? Sorry, the whole topic sounds a bit elitist, IMO.
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I don't know that anybody was trying to do that. Somebody, somewhere on this forum, said that each genre of music was validated as music, because each genre has it's own following. What I'm saying has nothing to do with genre, other than the fact that programmed beats tend to dominate strongly in a few particular genres.

In my view, I look at programmed drums as an entirely different instrument. Therefore, I wouldn't even put them in a drum forum. Would you put a Bass in the electric guitar forum? Or a guitar-sound synth in the guitar forums? Maybe you would, and I don't really mind that, I guess. That's how you think, and it's not how I think, and we don't have to fight about it or anything, but as I guitarist, I'd be kinda disgusted if someone kept posting bass guitar questions in the guitar forums. lol. ;)

That was my thinking when I suggested a new forum for "fake" drums. Not that, I'm somehow better than those who use programmed drums for their songs. Because I'm not.
 
Well, most people who use fake drums don't like fake drums, they're just using them cos it's the best they can do in the circumstances they have. Real drummers can give good advice on how to make fake drums sound good.
 
Resurrect said:
I don't know that anybody was trying to do that. Somebody, somewhere on this forum, said that each genre of music was validated as music, because each genre has it's own following. What I'm saying has nothing to do with genre, other than the fact that programmed beats tend to dominate strongly in a few particular genres.

In my view, I look at programmed drums as an entirely different instrument. Therefore, I wouldn't even put them in a drum forum. Would you put a Bass in the electric guitar forum? Or a guitar-sound synth in the guitar forums? Maybe you would, and I don't really mind that, I guess. That's how you think, and it's not how I think, and we don't have to fight about it or anything, but as I guitarist, I'd be kinda disgusted if someone kept posting bass guitar questions in the guitar forums. lol. ;)

That was my thinking when I suggested a new forum for "fake" drums. Not that, I'm somehow better than those who use programmed drums for their songs. Because I'm not.
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I'm sorry. I did not mean to draw a line. Just saw mentioned that separation was a possible from a mod. I didn't mean to bring genre into a drum war except to say that real drums don't play much in Rap/Dance, and fake drums don't in most other genres (if we can help it). But also, maybe you should look at the forums, because the Guitar and Bass forum is the guitar forum...;)
Not trying to pick fights here, just voicing opinion...and I DO respect yours as well. I'd love to have real drums set up (I do, but not at my studio). I would use them for everything I do!
 
I can't play drums very well, but I have a set of drums in my studio. I have had pretty good luck with using a click and timing grid when a Iay down the guitar/vocal scratch track I record. Then going back and playing and recording just the bass drum all the way through the song. Then I play and record just the snare....then the hat....finally the ride and toms. Then I have each piece of the drum kit on a separate track and I can adjust the timing of each track to the grid. I have found that placing the hit right on the grid mark gives a sterile feel and I miss the mark just a hair on purpose...according to how it effects the groove.
It is tedious and time consuming to do it that way. But, it doesn't sound like fake drums. It sounds like a human drummer that is pretty damn good.
 
To make things easier, put the hat/ride on the grid. Then move everything else before or after, depending on the feel. (Agressive, before the beat. Laid back, behind the beat)

Putting the hat/ride off the grid is pointless. The groove is caused by the relative timing of the kick and snare to the hat/ride (and each other)
 
Farview said:
To make things easier, put the hat/ride on the grid. Then move everything else before or after, depending on the feel. (Agressive, before the beat. Laid back, behind the beat)

Putting the hat/ride off the grid is pointless. The groove is caused by the relative timing of the kick and snare to the hat/ride (and each other)
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actually, I have put the high hat on the grid. not because I knew that's what you're supposed to do, but because the are so many hits to edit it's easier to just make sure they all line up to the grid lines
 
jimistone said:
actually, I have put the high hat on the grid. not because I knew that's what you're supposed to do, but because the are so many hits to edit it's easier to just make sure they all line up to the grid lines
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Something has to be keeping time and be 'on the grid'. The groove is from the interactions between the other instruments and 'time'. Without a consistent time, a groove really can't exist.

Even if you moved all the hats to just before the beat, you wouldn't accomplish anything other than moving the groove off the grid (because you don't hear the grid), and making your life harder in the process.
 
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