Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

[andrushkiwt]

They aren't 100% real sounding drums, and I don't think anyone should argue that

^^^ i guess i don't understand this method of thinking. they ARE real drums. played by a real drummer. live. and we've now determined that they aren't timed perfectly either. Do they have a distinct sound? yes. But if they don't sound like REAL drums, then what do they sound like....fake drums?! They are just as real as any kit in your studio.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Ok so that's about the same with ez drummer. If you zoom way in on the MIDI dots, they're not perfect, and they alter velocity by default. I think that's a function of auto-humanizing, not an actual human making the beat.

hey, it's possible. i will look into it, for sure. i keep saying that, but i will haha. i just swear i remember watching a YT video on it and they showed the guy playing beats and not just one note hits over and over. so, when i look at the midi map and see imperfect hits, i'm pretty sure it's from recording longer samples, as in measures long, not individual notes (although they surely do that too for the those ppl who write everything from scratch). but i'll check. hopefully i remember to post back if i find something.

 

[jimmys69]

^^^ i guess i don't understand this method of thinking. they ARE real drums. played by a real drummer. live. and we've now determined that they aren't timed perfectly either. Do they have a distinct sound? yes. But if they don't sound like REAL drums, then what do they sound like....fake drums?! They are just as real as any kit in your studio.

I would guess that the 'grooves' are played by real drummers using the samples that are triggered by the player. I would not doubt that those are real performances as it is clear that there is a human factor going on with them.

 

[miroslav]

Uh, so how do you explain it being quantized perfectly to a grid no matter the BPM? It's because the hits are moved around to fit. What you're saying may be partially true, but then you'd be stuck with whatever speed the so-called human played the beat at. There has to be grid manipulation of the samples to make it fit for any situation. That takes away whatever human feel the real human had when recording it. So you have to re-humanize it.

The packaged grooves are played by a drummer.
They take all the recorded performances and break them up into 1-2, sometimes longer, measures and package them as a variety of grooves...and they also convert each audio beat into a sample.
When you move the beats in MIDI, you are simply giving the sample a new play command.
Yes, you move the beats manually, you change the original groove...but, you can use the "humanize" options to maintain that random, human feel.

The grooves are also categorized by the original BPM...so if you stay in the ballpark, it will sound fine even if you change the BPM and/or move some of the beats around.
If you take a slow groove that was recorded at say....68 BPM...and you ratchet it up to 140 BMP....it will sound weird....which is why they provide so many different BPM grooves and often a lot of variations.
Like you don't want to start with with an uptempo 4/4 rock beat, and then turn it into some slow shuffle thing. You are better off going to the section that has the shuffle grooves and find something close to your BPM.

If you looked at Superior Drummer (which is what I'm basing my comments on, I don't really use EZ1 or EZ2)...you would see that it is VERY mix focused, just like a typical drum tracking session would be. You have the same audio options...plus, you can fuck around with the beats.

If it were a real recording of a kit the bleed in the overheads would cause problems with moving individual hits.

When you move the beats, you are simultaneously "moving" all the mics with them.
IOW...in the SD mixer, you have for example, the Snare top mic, bottom mic, and the OH mics. Moving a beat in time, doesn't change what the studio mics picked up. IOW....the bleed will stay accurate.
I've not found any kind of issues with bleed...and there's a reason you get such a HUGE library of samples. They cover all the nuances with real samples...so there's no fabricated shit going on.
That said...I tend to turn off a lot of the extra room mics and ambiance, and I like to trim back the bleed too, just to "dry up" the kit sound a bit more. They kinda give you the whole enchilada, with everything on it...but you have the option of using what works for your mix.

 

[jimmys69]

hey, it's possible. i will look into it, for sure. i keep saying that, but i will haha. i just swear i remember watching a YT video on it and they showed the guy playing beats and not just one note hits over and over. so, when i look at the midi map and see imperfect hits, i'm pretty sure it's from recording longer samples, as in measures long, not individual notes (although they surely do that too for the those ppl who write everything from scratch). but i'll check. hopefully i remember to post back if i find something.

One notes hit over and over 'IS' how the samples are recorded. That is how the samples are completely isolated. That would be the only way. The grooves are just using the samples that were previously recorded.

 

[miroslav]

I would guess that the 'grooves' are played by real drummers using the samples that are triggered by the player. I would not doubt that those are real performances as it is clear that there is a human factor going on with them.

I agree...it's really not that complicated for them to spend a day or two with a good drummer, and record a lot of samples and grooves...then the app guys take all that and fine tune it so it works with the program to allow you to manipulate it.
I certainly can clearly hear a human playing those drum grooves...all the subtlety in the timing and velocity is there, and if you look at the grooves in a MIDI editor, you can see it too.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Can we all agree it's a real drummer, behind a real kit, with real mics, playing real beats? Miro added some good intel there, and that covers the issue with drastically changing tempos. Sometimes I think we look at drum programs as they were back in the day...mimicked sounds and computer generated perfectness. it just isn't the case anymore.

 

[4tracker]

^^^ i guess i don't understand this method of thinking. they ARE real drums. played by a real drummer. live. and we've now determined that they aren't timed perfectly either. Do they have a distinct sound? yes. But if they don't sound like REAL drums, then what do they sound like....fake drums?! They are just as real as any kit in your studio.

Sorry, I meant the grooves. As I said, I think the sounds themselves sound better than any drummers I've recorded or heard recorded on my albums. When programming the groove, a little bit of something is lost, which is why I say they're 90% there. Call it interaction with other people or whatever, but a little bit is lost. Personally, it doesn't bother me. The con of setting up mics to various rooms/basements/attics only to record a guy who didn't "get" the feel of my song outweighs any cons in the software. At least now I can get much closer to the beat I hear. If it's slightly mechanical even after all the tricks I know, so bet it. It's a hobby for fun. Someone mentioned people are celebrating the death of real drums. I don't see anyone doing that. I think we'd all rather work with a very good drummer who "gets" the vibe of a song, and then record it with decent mics in a decent room, but that's hard to find. For me this would involve:

1. Placing an ad on CL or somewhere else to find a drummer.
2. Audition all of them.
3. Teach them my entire catalog of songs (probably over 50 songs).
4. Lug all my recording gear to their place, or lug their drums to a studio/pay big $.
5. Hope they get the vibe of the song and have feel I like.
6. Deal with the drummer/argue with him/ask him to stop mimicking Ringo Starr.
7. Fire him, look for someone new.

etc. So whatever cons come with the software, for me outweigh the cons of the perfect, magical unicorn drummer we'd all ideally be looking for. I don't celebrate not finding that guy, though. I came close with one guy. He wound up drumming for me live, but then joined The Frogs. He was a great drummer and a pleasure to work with...but he lives on the East Coast now. I might have him drum over my programmed drums once I lay down all the songs. I like that versatility, too, because you can find a drummer who you like later and have him record over the sampled track.

 

[andrushkiwt]

One notes hit over and over 'IS' how the samples are recorded. That is how the samples are completely isolated. That would be the only way. The grooves are just using the samples that were previously recorded.

that is how the individual note hits are created, yes. as in, if you were to construct your own beat entirely. Now, if you were to use a short pre made beat, i do not believe that's the case. that would be the actual beat played by the drummer.

 

[4tracker]

If you take a slow groove that was recorded at say....68 BPM...and you ratchet it up to 140 BMP....it will sound weird....which is why they provide so many different BPM grooves and often a lot of variations.
Like you don't want to start with with an uptempo 4/4 rock beat, and then turn it into some slow shuffle thing. You are better off going to the section that has the shuffle grooves and find something close to your BPM.

How does this apply if you start from scratch and don't use a preset groove/bpm as a starting point?

 

[jimmys69]

that is how the individual note hits are created, yes. as in, if you were to construct your own beat entirely. Now, if you were to use a short pre made beat, i do not believe that's the case. that would be the actual beat played by the drummer.

But, that is the case, as seen in your midi editor. The drummer is playing the beat live, but using the same samples that were pre-recorded. I believe we are saying the same thing, though it is not a totally different set of samples being used on the grooves. It is just triggering of those same samples with a real drummer actually playing/triggering them.

 

[andrushkiwt]

How does this apply if you start from scratch and don't use a preset groove/bpm as a starting point?

i believe the note selection (anytime you insert something on your own- not part of a beat) is made up of the individual, isolated hits only. this is my educated guess - not fact.

 

[andrushkiwt]

But, that is the case, as seen in your midi editor. The drummer is playing the beat live, but using the same samples that were pre-recorded. I believe we are saying the same thing, though it is not a totally different set of samples being used on the grooves. It is just triggering of those same samples with a real drummer actually playing/triggering them.

aah!!! i'm mind-boggled! lol. let me read over that a few times and possibly take a quick break from this for awhile. brain.is.melting. it's all good - i think we might be close, if not on the same page already.

 

[4tracker]

i believe the note selection (anytime you insert something on your own- not part of a beat) is made up of the individual, isolated hits only. this is my educated guess - not fact.

That's good. I hope so. I just want to make sure it's not stretching some sample from a programmed groove. I feel that would be noticeable, and I never noticed anything like that, so I assume that has to be right.

 

[andrushkiwt]

That's good. I hope so. I just want to make sure it's not stretching some sample from a programmed groove. I feel that would be noticeable, and I never noticed anything like that, so I assume that has to be right.

They sound different than the hits of the same pieces within the grooves, for one. Two, there is no bleed from other pieces in those hits (not really proof since I guess they could turn the bleed level off completely). but yeah, i;m just guessing there, definitely not 100% sure

 

[4tracker]

But, that is the case, as seen in your midi editor. The drummer is playing the beat live, but using the same samples that were pre-recorded. I believe we are saying the same thing, though it is not a totally different set of samples being used on the grooves. It is just triggering of those same samples with a real drummer actually playing/triggering them.

How is he triggering them? Are you saying he records them all on a real kit, and then moves to a midi kit to trigger midi samples of what he just recorded on a real kit? On youtube they show the making of expansion packs, and they show the drummer on a real kit. So we know a real kit is involved to some degree.

Maybe one of us should write the company and just ask. I wouldn't trust the midi editor (where it lines up notes) because importing into that might import the humanize function from EZD, which is why they could be off.

 

[jimmys69]

That's good. I hope so. I just want to make sure it's not stretching some sample from a programmed groove. I feel that would be noticeable, and I never noticed anything like that, so I assume that has to be right.

The groove you insert is still using the drum program to send the samples. There is no 'stretching' of the sample in any way. It is exactly the same as programming it yourself. Well, except for the fact that a real drummer either actually played the groove, or it was programmed to match that beat by someone who knows exactly what they are doing. There is no real proof of that but it does sound and feel like a drummer playing the grooves.

And that is the point. Much can be learned by using a groove supplied, and looking at it in your MIDI editor. It will show the different velocities and how a 'feel' is created. Well, maybe how it looks after the fact anyway.

 

[4tracker]

Much can be learned by using a groove supplied, and looking at it in your MIDI editor. It will show the different velocities and how a 'feel' is created.

Yes, agreed, so long as it isn't importing a "humanize" function and that is in fact the real drummer's hits on those pre-programmed grooves. The pre made grooves sound like a real drummer for sure.

 

[jimmys69]

How is he triggering them? Are you saying he records them all on a real kit, and then moves to a midi kit to trigger midi samples of what he just recorded on a real kit? On youtube they show the making of expansion packs, and they show the drummer on a real kit. So we know a real kit is involved to some degree.

Maybe one of us should write the company and just ask. I wouldn't trust the midi editor (where it lines up notes) because importing into that might import the humanize function from EZD, which is why they could be off.

Well, something like SSTrigger will trigger the samples from audio input. SSTrigger does not however have cymbal samples so it could be a combination of samples and live. IDK. You can trigger basically any sample from any mic and it is not clear how they show this in the videos. Don't forget they are selling a product. That means they are not necessarily explaining how exactly they made the video, nor are they either being false in their advertising. They are showing the grooves being created.

The tracks could have been recorded/sampled with an e-kit and the video is there to give the illusion of it being played from a real kit.

The point is, that the MIDI track you see after using one of the grooves, IS the samples that you have to play with/program yourself. Not a separate set of samples or recording. It is what it is.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

^^^ i guess i don't understand this method of thinking. they ARE real drums. played by a real drummer. live. and we've now determined that they aren't timed perfectly either.

It's not that the timing is "imperfect", it's that when it deviates from "correct" it does so because a group of musicians is interacting in real time. They can make eye contact, watch each other play, gesture cues, sense and respond to dynamics. The process is so different that the outcome is inevitably different. That's the sense in which programmed drums are not real. Even if everything else about them is real, the performance is not.

I understand that real drums are impossible for most people recording at home. Programmed drums are a fantastic tool and they can sound really good. But it's a mistake to say they're the same as real drums.