Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

[andrushkiwt]

So, just to chime in here with a lil somethin'.... unless my thinking is way off, the major drum "samplers" are actually REAL drum kits. They are played by a great drummer, in a great room, with a great mic... so, when any one of us loads a "groove" into our midi-editor (untouched), how is it any different than having that kit right in front of you? you have .wav's of raw drums form many mics.

The only difference is the "feel" of the tune. Maybe the drummer played the song at 120bpm, and when you speed it up or down, it changes the feel of the rhythm. THAT i understand, but any other criticism should be negated by the above facts, no? I have met some ppl who think that these drum programs are "electronic" drums or that they are computer generated sounds...that isn't the case. is there more to it that i don't see?

 

[famous beagle]

So if say there are 15 snare hit samples in there, it just varies the order of samples used?

Yes, that's right. It's particularly useful for avoiding the "machine gun effect," in which the exact same snare hit would play 10 times in a row during a 16th-note fill or something.

 

[famous beagle]

So, just to chime in here with a lil somethin'.... unless my thinking is way off, the major drum "samplers" are actually REAL drum kits. They are played by a great drummer, in a great room, with a great mic... so, when any one of us loads a "groove" into our midi-editor (untouched), how is it any different than having that kit right in front of you? you have .wav's of raw drums form many mics.

The only difference is the "feel" of the tune. Maybe the drummer played the song at 120bpm, and when you speed it up or down, it changes the feel of the rhythm. THAT i understand, but any other criticism should be negated by the above facts, no? I have met some ppl who think that these drum programs are "electronic" drums or that they are computer generated sounds...that isn't the case. is there more to it that i don't see?

No, you're essentially right. The main difference is that a real drum track is not going to contain any repeats at all (unless of course you copy and paste), whereas if you're using the MIDI grooves that come with EZDrummer, for example, you'll likely be hearing something more than once, unless you have a really vast MIDI library of grooves. Even then, the humanize function will help to disguise it a bit, since it will be using different samples throughout. In other words, the timing and velocity of the 8-bar pattern won't change, but the program will be cycling through slightly different sample sounds randomly in order to help add some more realism.

Now ... with regards to recording your own MIDI tracks with a drum controller, that would be very close to tracking your own drums. The only difference is that, again, instead of the program cycling through, say, 15 different snare samples throughout your song for a regular snare hit, a real kit will produce an infinite amount of variation. This is obviously splitting hairs, but that's basically what the difference has come down to these days.

 

[Greg_L]

So, just to chime in here with a lil somethin'.... unless my thinking is way off, the major drum "samplers" are actually REAL drum kits. They are played by a great drummer, in a great room, with a great mic... so, when any one of us loads a "groove" into our midi-editor (untouched), how is it any different than having that kit right in front of you? you have .wav's of raw drums form many mics.

The only difference is the "feel" of the tune. Maybe the drummer played the song at 120bpm, and when you speed it up or down, it changes the feel of the rhythm. THAT i understand, but any other criticism should be negated by the above facts, no? I have met some ppl who think that these drum programs are "electronic" drums or that they are computer generated sounds...that isn't the case. is there more to it that i don't see?

No, it's not that. Drum programs aren't some guy inside your computer playing your song for you. The "groove" you load are individual samples placed on a grid to form a beat. The samples may be real drums, mic'd by real mics, hit by a real guy. But that's as far as the human goes. A one bar "groove" is just those samples put together.

 

[andrushkiwt]

thanks FB. yeah i think controlling the velocities and timing will help make it sound more like the drummer was playing to your tune. Lots of ppl complain about hits being too perfect, even when humanized...but really, listen to any modern rock songs...their drummers are in near perfect time as well. I think the intensity of the hits is the bigger giveaway. constant sounds are more of a eye-opener than good timing, IMO

 

[andrushkiwt]

The "groove" you load are individual samples placed on a grid to form a beat. .

I believe in some cases this isn't true. In Superior Drummer, the drummer is playing the actual groove for several bars. That is what is recorded and what can be inserted. I'm just saying that your quote seems to state that only individual hits are recorded and then thrown together. I don't think that's the case. It isn't one snare hit plus one kick drum tossed into a beat, it's the actual beat played and recorded...so there is a feel to it.

one more clarification attempt: they aren't hitting the snare in isolation and then the kick etc... and then tossing those individual hits together to make a short beat...they are actually playing the beat and recording it. For the "grooves" anyway. Yes, if you write your own beats entirely from scratch, i believe those are the hits that are recorded in isolation, without a feel to it. but not the pre-made grooves.

 

[Greg_L]

I believe in some cases this isn't true. In Superior Drummer, the drummer is playing the actual groove for several bars. That is what is recorded and what can be inserted. I'm just saying that your quote seems to state that only individual hits are recorded and then thrown together. I don't think that's the case. It isn't one snare hit plus one kick drum tossed into a beat, it's the actual beat played and recorded...so there is a feel to it.

Uh, so how do you explain it being quantized perfectly to a grid no matter the BPM? It's because the hits are moved around to fit. What you're saying may be partially true, but then you'd be stuck with whatever speed the so-called human played the beat at. There has to be grid manipulation of the samples to make it fit for any situation. That takes away whatever human feel the real human had when recording it. So you have to re-humanize it.

 

[andrushkiwt]

Uh, so how do you explain it being quantized perfectly to a grid no matter the BPM? It's because the hits are moved around to fit. What you're saying may be partially true, but then you'd be stuck with whatever speed the so-called human played the beat at. There has to be grid manipulation of the samples to make it fit for any situation. That takes away whatever human feel the real human had when recording it. So you have to re-humanize it.

I can take a screenshot for you if you would like. When I insert a pre-made groove into the midi-editor, it is NOT in perfect time. There are hits before and after the time lines. all over. Seriously, i promise ya. Now, when ppl write their own, unless they turn off "snap", it's going to put the hits on the line perfectly...but the preset grooves are loose... they are loose because he plays to the a certain "song" that is a certain tempo. He will play beat A then beat B etc...then fill A and fill B etc... and so on to that "song". (a "song" is a particular tempo. anything that shows up under the 120bpm category is the same "song" - toontrack, anyway).

 

[bouldersoundguy]

There has to be grid manipulation of the samples to make it fit for any situation.

It's either this or they apply pitch/speed processing which would probably cause noticeable degradation on a drum track. You'd get unnatural results like cymbals and toms decaying faster when the tempo is increased. I suspect Greg's right, the grooves are constructed of individual samples.

 

[Greg_L]

I can take a screenshot for you if you would like. When I insert a pre-made groove into the midi-editor, it is NOT in perfect time. There are hits before and after the time lines. all over. Seriously, i promise ya. Now, when ppl write their own, unless they turn off "snap", it's going to put the hits on the line perfectly...but the preset grooves are loose... they are loose because he plays to the a certain "song" that is a certain tempo. He will play beat A then beat B etc...then fill A and fill B etc... and so on to that "song". (a "song" is a particular tempo. anything that shows up under the 120bpm category is the same "song" - toontrack, anyway).

Okay then. I believe ya. I've never messed with with whatever drum program that is. So what do you to change things? Are there a bunch of different measures for a bunch of different tempos? That must be like thousands and thousands of little files. Is it actual audio? Or is it MIDI dots in a MIDI editor?

 

[4tracker]

Okay then. I believe ya. I've never messed with with whatever drum program that is. So what do you to change things? Are there a bunch of different measures for a bunch of different tempos? That must be like thousands and thousands of little files. Is it actual audio? Or is it MIDI dots in a MIDI editor?

The pre-recorded "grooves" are usually only 1 or 2 measures. They're actual audio from what I remember, that is then triggered by the midi.

A good way to program, only if you need something quick, is to take one of those grooves, paste it into the midi drum editor, and then manipulate it as needed. That way some hits and velocities are already off. If you have a unique part or elaborate part you'll have to program it from scratch, but you can get a groove that isn't mechanical by using the daw's quantize section. This usually includes a swing or lilt option, and moving it between 5-13% helps a lot. You can also program the drummer to be off by various ticks, which I think = ~10ms(?). This essentially de-quantizers the drummer. This is better, imo, than trying to move a drum off the beat. I usually use 2 ticks. Then you adjust the velocity (you can randomize this through a macro function to save time). Finally, you go through and make sure the programmed drummer isn't using 3 arms or feet at any point. This method is way better imo than using "humanize" feature built into the software.

This is basically how to program human drums. If you do all that, it sounds very close to human, and the average user is not even going to know.

 

[Greg_L]

The pre-recorded "grooves" are usually only 1 or 2 measures. They're actual audio from what I remember.

A good way to program is to take one of those grooves, paste it into the midi drum editor, and then manipulate it as needed. That way some hits and velocities are already off. That only works if you need something quick. If you have a unique part or elaborate part you'll have to program it from scratch, but you can get a groove that isn't mechanical by using the daw's quantize section. This usually includes a swing or lilt option, and moving it between 5-13% helps a lot. You can also program the drummer to be off by various ticks, which I think = ~10ms(?). This is better, imo, than trying to move a drum off the beat. I usually use 2 ticks. Then you adjust the velocity (you can randomize this through a macro function to save time). Finally, you go through and make sure the programmed drummer isn't using 3 arms or feet at any point.

This is basically how to program human drums. If you do all that, it sounds very close to human, and the average user is not even going to know.

And the samples are actually audio triggered by the midi. It's like a player piano's punch card.

I get all that. That's not really what I was asking.

Andrush said these are real beats recorded by a real drummer on a real kit for different styles and tempos. So let me see if I got this...there was a guy, in a room, at a kit, and he recorded x number of beats x number of ways x number of times for x number of measures, and did all that for every single tempo imaginable? That doesn't seem plausible to me.

 

[andrushkiwt]

i get what ya guys are saying about increasing tempo and the pitch increasing...i'm going to look into it. all i know is that the hits are not in time when using premade grooves. often, i'll have to move them INTO time because they are so far off. i doubt they would purposely move all the notes varying amounts...unless they humanize first, before we even have a chance to. i'll check that.

one way or another, the hits are not timelined perfectly.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

i get what ya guys are saying about increasing tempo and the pitch increasing...i'm going to look into it. all i know is that the hits are not in time when using premade grooves. often, i'll have to move them INTO time because they are so far off. i doubt they would purposely move all the notes varying amounts...unless they humanize first, before we even have a chance to. i'll check that.

one way or another, the hits are not timelined perfectly.

If you can move individual beats in a groove then Greg is right. If it were a real recording of a kit the bleed in the overheads would cause problems with moving individual hits.

 

[Greg_L]

one way or another, the hits are not timelined perfectly.

Could that be something on your end not "snapping"? Or maybe some setting? Just asking. I can't imagine a pro drummer recording a bar at 120 would be so far off the grid that it'd be badly noticeable. I can't imagine he'd have that job if he's that bad. The only programs I've seen, I admit my experience is limited, have the beats at certain tempos match up with whatever your DAW BPM is set at.

 

[Mr Clean]

I just looked in EZD2 and the groove hits aren't perfectly quantized except for the first ones in any measure. Is that something to do with the Humanize function being enabled all the time? I don't remember the grooves being anything but quantized in EZD1, but maybe they were. Can you have a look Greg?

Even still, I would say that those grooves have been doctored from what the drummer originally played. I can't see Toontrack putting out anything that's as loose as a real drummer. They'd have to manipulate the grooves somewhat to get them to.....well groove!

IMO

 

[andrushkiwt]

Could that be something on your end not "snapping"? Or maybe some setting? Just asking. I can't imagine a pro drummer recording a bar at 120 would be so far off the grid that it'd be badly noticeable. I can't imagine he'd have that job is he's that bad. The only programs I've seen, I admit my experience is limited, have the beats at certain tempos match up with whatever your DAW BPM is set at.

the scenario where i've had to move a hit is something like this: i have selected a basic beat for the chorus. however, this beat doesn't come with a cymbal on "one". so, when i insert that cymbal onto the first hit of the beat, the kick that was already there is conflicting in time with the new cymbal (either before or after) - this is confirmed by looking at the grid. in fact, as soon as you insert the groove, open the midi editor and have a real close look at it...it's very close to perfect time, but it's not. either they recorded the guy playing naturally or they humanized the part after moving it into place. either way, the cymbal i added won't be in perfect time with the kick and it will sound funny, so i have to move one or the other if i want a solid kick/cymbal combo.

 

[andrushkiwt]

I just looked in EZD2 and the groove hits aren't perfectly quantized except for the first ones in any measure. Is that something to do with the Humanize function being enabled all the time? I don't remember the grooves being anything but quantized in EZD1, but maybe they were. Can you have a look Greg?

Even still, I would say that those grooves have been doctored from what the drummer originally played. I can't see Toontrack putting out anything that's as loose as a real drummer. They'd have to manipulate the grooves somewhat to get them to.....well groove!

IMO

yeah, there we go. thanks for checking. never used ezd1, so not sure. all i know is SD2 doesn't have perfectly timed beats/fills etc...unless you write them that way.

 

[4tracker]

yeah, there we go. thanks for checking. never used ezd1, so not sure. all i know is SD2 doesn't have perfectly timed beats/fills etc...unless you write them that way.

In ezd1 you could turn humanize on or off. In ezd2, it is on by default (at least it was last I looked... I know many people were upset by that so maybe they patched it).

I'm not sure how they do what Greg is asking. Wikipedia says they use 7,000 audio files. So maybe they record the preset grooves at 120bmp and then vary the velocity and other attributes after the fact and create a new .wav file from that. They aren't 100% real sounding drums, and I don't think anyone should argue that, but for people who don't have drums they can get you like 90% there, and an average user won't notice if you do it right. I think something like ezdrummer is light years ahead of a program like amplitube. The latter have very unpleasing/digital artifacts. The modern drums programs, however, sound great (sound wise, better than drums I've had done in a studio. Groove wise, slightly less, but I hated most of my drummers' feel so that's fine). A big problem with the amp sims is that nasty upper frequency and then the inability to capture feedback or air hitting the mic.

 

[Greg_L]

the scenario where i've had to move a hit is something like this: i have selected a basic beat for the chorus. however, this beat doesn't come with a cymbal on "one". so, when i insert that cymbal onto the first hit of the beat, the kick that was already there is conflicting in time with the new cymbal (either before or after) - this is confirmed by looking at the grid. in fact, as soon as you insert the groove, open the midi editor and have a real close look at it...it's very close to perfect time, but it's not. either they recorded the guy playing naturally or they humanized the part after moving it into place. either way, the cymbal i added won't be in perfect time with the kick and it will sound funny, so i have to move one or the other if i want a solid kick/cymbal combo.

Ok so that's about the same with ez drummer. If you zoom way in on the MIDI dots, they're not perfect, and they alter velocity by default. I think that's a function of auto-humanizing, not an actual human making the beat.