Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.

[Mr Clean]

That is correct. I lay out a beat with fills and changes with EZ Drummer. I know what I can or can't play, so I make a drum track as Greg would play it. Try out different speeds, fills, patterns, etc. When I'm satisfied, I track it for real the same way. Instead of writing drums on the fly or though trial-and-error at the kit, I "write" it with a drum program and by the time I track it for real I know how it goes and I can just fly right through it.

I knew I didn't dream it.

I would love to hear a track of yours with EZDrummer on it. You know, like an A/B/ Fake vs Real. Obviously making the fake sound as good as possible and not just using the stock sounds. I know you know your way away the sound of EZDrummer because of the help you've given me over the years. It would be interesting to see what a good drummer can do with fake drums, if you know what I mean.

*This is not a challenge by the way. Just a musing.

 

[Greg_L]

I knew I didn't dream it.

I would love to hear a track of yours with EZDrummer on it. You know, like an A/B/ Fake vs Real. Obviously making the fake sound as good as possible and not just using the stock sounds. I know you know your way away the sound of EZDrummer because of the help you've given me over the years. It would be interesting to see what a good drummer can do with fake drums, if you know what I mean.

*This is not a challenge by the way. Just a musing.

Okay, sure I can do that. The only drawback is that I have no expansion kits or anything. I just use the stock basic EZ kit because I don't keep those sounds anyway. The stock kit samples are less than great to me, but it doesn't matter. It's just a writing/demo tool for me, so IMO it won't sound anywhere near as good as my real drums.

 

[Mr Clean]

Okay, sure I can do that. The only drawback is that I have no expansion kits or anything. I just use the stock basic EZ kit because I don't keep those sounds anyway. The stock kit samples are less than great to me, but it doesn't matter. It's just a writing/demo tool for me, so IMO it won't sound anywhere near as good as my real drums.

I'm willing to bet it'll sound better than a lot of drums we hear on other peoples tracks, mine included.

 

[Greg_L]

I'm willing to bet it'll sound better than a lot of drums we hear on other peoples tracks, mine included.

Lol. Thanks, but I doubt it. I use the same tools yall do, and what's worse is I have no patience for "humanizing" a programmed demo track. I know the importance of humanizing, but I don't do it for demo run. I'm not about to spend hours fine tuning every hit for a track that will never see the light of day. But I'll do it just for you. Next time I do a mix I'll send you one with real drums and fake drums.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...the stock EZ kits aren't the greatest.
So for the guys that depend on sampled drums for their tracks...you really need to explore some of the expansion packs, and if you are more serious...get Superior Drummer, they have some great expansion packs, plus...you can also use the EZ Drummer packs with SD...and SD also is more of a serious tool.
I know the new EZD2 is improved over the old EZ, and it may even have more or different stock kits...but you should still consider some expansion packs. Go to Toontrack and demo the sound libraries...and then pick your packs.

 

[Mr Clean]

Lol. Thanks, but I doubt it. I use the same tools yall do, and what's worse is I have no patience for "humanizing" a programmed demo track. I know the importance of humanizing, but I don't do it for demo run. I'm not about to spend hours fine tuning every hit for a track that will never see the light of day. But I'll do it just for you. Next time I do a mix I'll send you one with real drums and fake drums.

Edit* I know something for sure. Since starting learning to play the drums, albeit on an electric kit, I can see all the places in the midi notes where I was going wrong before and how the humanize function doesn't actually do what it's intended to do.

 

[Greg_L]

Edit* I know something for sure. Since starting learning to play the drums, albeit on an electric kit, I can see all the places in the midi notes where I was going wrong before and how the humanize function doesn't actually do what it's intended to do.

I don't understand the humanize button. It doesn't seem to do much of anything that I can tell. But I admit I'm not that well versed on the tricks to EZ drummer.

 

[Mr Clean]

I don't understand the humanize button. It doesn't seem to do much of anything that I can tell. But I admit I'm not that well versed on the tricks to EZ drummer.

You're right, it doesn't do much at all! It just moves things slightly left or right off the beat, randomly left or right with some computer generated algorithm, which we all know, can't faux a human. The more you increase it, the worse it sounds, in my experience.

Comparing the effect of that and a drummer playing to a click and seeing those hits on the grid. there are miles of difference with a much better feel and sound. But, I guess, that is the "real" (human) factor added in to the fake world.

Best thing I ever did was learn to hit things instead of putting blobs in blocks.

 

[RFR]

I don't understand the humanize button. It doesn't seem to do much of anything that I can tell. But I admit I'm not that well versed on the tricks to EZ drummer.

Ah, you're probably trying to click on it. Wrong. You need to hit it with a drumstick.
Humanized real fast.


Seriously, i got no clue, never used it.

 

[Greg_L]

Ah, you're probably trying to click on it. Wrong. You need to hit it with a drumstick.
Humanized real fast.


Seriously, i got no clue, never used it.

I've heard quite a few real drummers that could use less humanizing.

 

[4tracker]

You're right, it doesn't do much at all! It just moves things slightly left or right off the beat, randomly left or right with some computer generated algorithm, which we all know, can't faux a human. The more you increase it, the worse it sounds, in my experience.

Comparing the effect of that and a drummer playing to a click and seeing those hits on the grid. there are miles of difference with a much better feel and sound. But, I guess, that is the "real" (human) factor added in to the fake world.

Best thing I ever did was learn to hit things instead of putting blobs in blocks.

I'd be curious to see the two compared. Can you post a screen cap of the two?

How does hitting the electric/midi drums compare with programming drums, in general? I've thought about going that route but figured it would be similar to programming and more $ invested in a hobby (i.e. zero return expected). I have neighbors on all 4 walls so no chance of using a real kit.

 

[miroslav]

Take it to PMs or Oprah.

Does she play drums?

 

[Mr Clean]

I can't do screenshots right now but I will tomorrow when I get a chance.

From what I have observed, the humanize function pushes the notes randomly left and right, off the beat. Say a HiHat and Snare that were both on the same beat, one forward, one back but never not back or forward together. A real drummer (I'm not a great one by any stretch but I can keep a beat) playing the drums is either slightly behind or in front of the beat. But 9 times out of 10 that Snare and HiHat are pretty much spot on the same, behind or in front of that beat. When you include all the other drums in the equation, the humanize function is pushing notes here, there and everywhere but it's nothing like a real drummer. The more you increase it, the further they go in their random directions and the worse it sounds.

Taking in to account the fact that no drummer has 100% perfect timing but a good one will hit the drums in time with themselves and their own metronome, the randomization of the humanize function is not really doing what it's claims to do. Obviously, pushing the notes slightly off does give it a different feel to the whole, everything on the beat, disco, dance music or whatever feel but it doesn't sound, or look, timing wise like something a real drummer would play.

I borrowed an electric kit off a friend originally to see how I got on with playing, then I bought my own. They can be noisy. Not as noisy as a real kit obviously but the kick on mine has a real THUD to it and the pads, depending on the make can be quite loud. Luckily though, I have a room 60ft from anyone and can twat the things all night long if I want to. It really is the best thing I've ever got though, in getting better drum tracks and learning how to make beats. I could program them much better now than I could a year ago.

By this time next year, I aim to have a PROPER kit set up, mic'd up and starting a whole new learning curve and badgering Greg for advice.

 

[beezelbubba]

From what I have observed, the humanize function pushes the notes randomly left and right, off the beat. Say a HiHat and Snare that were both on the same beat, one forward, one back but never not back or forward together. A real drummer (I'm not a great one by any stretch but I can keep a beat) playing the drums is either slightly behind or in front of the beat. But 9 times out of 10 that Snare and HiHat are pretty much spot on the same, behind or in front of that beat. When you include all the other drums in the equation, the humanize function is pushing notes here, there and everywhere but it's nothing like a real drummer. The more you increase it, the further they go in their random directions and the worse it sounds.

Taking in to account the fact that no drummer has 100% perfect timing but a good one will hit the drums in time with themselves and their own metronome, the randomization of the humanize function is not really doing what it's claims to do. Obviously, pushing the notes slightly off does give it a different feel to the whole, everything on the beat, disco, dance music or whatever feel but it doesn't sound, or look, timing wise like something a real drummer would play.

Does it also randomly modify velocity? I would think that should be a factor,too.

 

[Mr Clean]

Does it also randomly modify velocity? I would think that should be a factor,too.

There's another function for velocity. If you have an electric kit with good sensitivity you get more of a feel of a real drummer, velocity wise.

I've never successfully got the Velocity function to work well as a random setting with programmed drums and have always done each hit individually in the past. Something most people would find tedious.

I'm working in Reaper here, I don't know if/how the midi editors differ in other DAW's.

EDIT* Please bear in mind that this is all my own experience. I'm no authority of this stuff.

 

[miroslav]

If you are talking about EZ...those functions are kinda limited.
In SD they are much more fine tuned, and there's more to the whole "humanize" package.

I've never messed with increasing the amount of "humanize", and from my own experience, it's best to leave it as-is on auto pilot, because it will be more subtle and random...but if you feel like futzing with each and ever note (think - lots of wasted time), you might get something a little better, but IMO, the problem with "humanizing" every note manually, is that it becomes a conscious act....IOW, you start thinking about how far behind ahead of the beat you should place each note or what velocity to use...and it will actually become more "robotic than "human".
Not saying you can't improve on the automatic option...just that it tends to not be as easy as one might think.

I prefer to play the track and listen...and only where I sense things are too far off or too robotic, will I make changes.
That way, I don't end up changing every note. I mean...even the sloppy drummers will play on the beat with the same velocity from time to time.

 

[mjbphotos]

I use what used to be called the Shwann Humanizer in Reaper for EZD (I'm at work now, forget what its called in Reaper 5.0), and it has two sliders - one for timing and one for velocity. I've found that with EZD2, like Teddy says, messing with the timing much makes it sound way f*ked up because some are ahead of the beat, some are behind, so I keep that timing variation really minimal, and don't allow much velocity change either, instead I will vary the velocities in the MIDI editor screen.

 

[famous beagle]

From the Toontrack website, regarding the humanize feature in EZD2:

The Humanize feature ONLY chooses which sample is played from the sample pool. Humanize does not change the timing or velocity of the groove. This feature makes the performance sound real and avoids the machine gun effect.

I don't know if EZD1 worked the same way or not. The manual didn't say anything other than it basically helped the track from sounding too robotic.

Edit: I just read on their site that it worked the same way in EZD1. It never affected the velocity or timing --- just the alias hits. Also, the ability to turn it on and off has been removed in EZD2; it's just always on. I don't understand why they couldn't have left a little on/off knob there. They said that they figured no one ever wanted it off, so they just removed the ability to turn it off. Strange.

 

[Greg_L]

From the Toontrack website, regarding the humanize feature in EZD2:

The Humanize feature ONLY chooses which sample is played from the sample pool. Humanize does not change the timing or velocity of the groove. This feature makes the performance sound real and avoids the machine gun effect.

I don't know if EZD1 worked the same way or not. The manual didn't say anything other than it basically helped the track from sounding too robotic.

Edit: I just read on their site that it worked the same way in EZD1. It never affected the velocity or timing --- just the alias hits. Also, the ability to turn it on and off has been removed in EZD2; it's just always on. I don't understand why they couldn't have left a little on/off knob there. They said that they figured no one ever wanted it off, so they just removed the ability to turn it off. Strange.

So if say there are 15 snare hit samples in there, it just varies the order of samples used?

 

[Mr Clean]

I've never actually used the Humanize button in EZD and didn't know it was always on in EZD2. That's interesting. I always thought in EZD that the Humanize button would work solely for the actual midi samples/grooves so never pressed it. I've never really used them and only ever programmed my own beats, albeit for a few fills.

I've also always used the functions that are built in to Reaper's Midi Editor for controlling the timing and velocity. Maybe those functions differ and are better in Cubase's Midi Editor say? I don't know. I used to use Sonar 6 but I never messed with midi back then.

Using a Midi Controller (V Drums) the timing and velocity is determined by the settings being sent by the module/brain and how hard/when the pads are hit. Which from experience in the last year, is nothing at all like what any Humanize function, I've seen, does.