Paiste hi-hats and rides discovery

Greg_L said:
Cheap cymbals sound one way, and one way only.
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I agree with this, but if you like the one way they sound then that might be a good thing, if you're not too experimental. Just a steady, constant sound, that never changes much.
 
yeah i have to say that i think those cymbals sound cheap too. sorry i do. there's a certain harshness that all lowend cymbals tend to have.

i'm not a drummer but i love listening to and recording my drummers A customs and ancient(and gigantic) zildjian ride
 
Learning a lot here

Greg_L said:
Cheap cymbals sound one way, and one way only. You can coax all sorts of sounds and textures from good cymbals.
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So what I can guess from this is... Cheap cymbals that don't sound like ass (not the horrible unusable thin beginner cymbals) must be a thicker cymbal (perhaps cheaper & easier to manufacture a thick cymbal that sounds musical than a thin cymbal that sounds musical?). As the better cheap cymbals are thicker in gauge, you cannot coax different sounds out of them so they are less expressive. High end cymbals are the opposite, they are a little thinner but careful manufacture has created a musical thin cymbal, thus a musical thin cymbal that is very expressive. I'm talking about relative thinness though, I do know that you can get heavy gauge high end cymbals that are expressive. So are the heavy gauge expressive cymbals even thinner than the musical cheap cymbals?

Is any of that correct? Never really had any time with high end drumming gear. :o :p
 
_brian_ said:
So what I can guess from this is... Cheap cymbals that don't sound like ass (not the horrible unusable thin beginner cymbals) must be a thicker cymbal (perhaps cheaper & easier to manufacture a thick cymbal that sounds musical than a thin cymbal that sounds musical?). As the better cheap cymbals are thicker in gauge, you cannot coax different sounds out of them so they are less expressive. High end cymbals are the opposite, they are a little thinner but careful manufacture has created a musical thin cymbal, thus a musical thin cymbal that is very expressive. I'm talking about relative thinness though, I do know that you can get heavy gauge high end cymbals that are expressive. So are the heavy gauge expressive cymbals even thinner than the musical cheap cymbals?

Is any of that correct? Never really had any time with high end drumming gear. :o :p
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haha...thats way more complicated than it really is. the ultimate reality is that you get what you pay for. most cheaper cymbals are made from different metals than real cymbals have been made with forever. the reason for this is cost. different formulations of alloys not to mention stamped vs hammered and all of that.

there is a reason that cymbals have been made the way they are for so long. because it works and sounds good. yes there are cheaper ways to do it but the resonances and vibrations just don't work in the same way and they end up sounding harsh/thin/whatever.
 
_brian_ said:
So what I can guess from this is... Cheap cymbals that don't sound like ass (not the horrible unusable thin beginner cymbals) must be a thicker cymbal (perhaps cheaper & easier to manufacture a thick cymbal that sounds musical than a thin cymbal that sounds musical?). As the better cheap cymbals are thicker in gauge, you cannot coax different sounds out of them so they are less expressive. High end cymbals are the opposite, they are a little thinner but careful manufacture has created a musical thin cymbal, thus a musical thin cymbal that is very expressive. I'm talking about relative thinness though, I do know that you can get heavy gauge high end cymbals that are expressive. So are the heavy gauge expressive cymbals even thinner than the musical cheap cymbals?

Is any of that correct? Never really had any time with high end drumming gear. :o :p
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No, thickness really has nothing to do with it. Generally, the thickness mainly controls loudness. Thicker cymbals are louder. The alloy, hammering, and latheing are more important than relative thickness. Look at a cheap cymbal. It's usually rolled out of sheet brass, minimally hammered if at all, and the lathe grooves are jagged and cut by a machine. A high end cymbal is individually made from a much higher quality bronze alloy casting, it's hand hammered or machine hammered to exacting specs, and hand lathed. I'm telling ya, there's a huge difference in sound quality and projection.
 
lol

I wasn't too hopeful of being able to put a formula to things, least I tried though!! :p

Lee, I wonder if buying lower-end hihats would be a step back for you. The DH hats (I've heard & read) are a little trashy sounding - is this what you don't like about them? Other than that all I can gather is that it may be the size of the dh hats, I've never known anyone to use 12" hats, I have 13" hats though, and they seem to be more popular for studio work - especially if working with a busy mix.

I may buy a set of 14" 101's. They're only £35 and I certainly can't afford anything more than that at the moment. They sound like they'll be a step up from my current starter hats, and that's all I'm looking for. I'm writing seriously at the moment, not recording seriously - and if I'm desperate I could borrow 2002's, from a friend.
 
_brian_ said:
I wasn't too hopeful of being able to put a formula to things, least I tried though!! :p

Lee, I wonder if buying lower-end hihats would be a step back for you. The DH hats (I've heard & read) are a little trashy sounding - is this what you don't like about them? Other than that all I can gather is that it may be the size of the dh hats, I've never known anyone to use 12" hats, I have 13" hats though, and they seem to be more popular for studio work - especially if working with a busy mix.

I may buy a set of 14" 101's. They're only £35 and I certainly can't afford anything more than that at the moment. They sound like they'll be a step up from my current starter hats, and that's all I'm looking for. I'm writing seriously at the moment, not recording seriously - and if I'm desperate I could borrow 2002's, from a friend.
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Nah, the staggs are too "boingy" sounding, if you know what i mean. I wouldn't mind a high-pitched or trashy sounding hihat. That's what i expected from the staggs.

I don't know if it would be a step up, but i do like the sound of a brass set one of my students have. I would consider that a step up, sound wise. Actual quality would probably be a step-back though.

I'm gonna try the 101s with a student, and if I like them, i might buy a set for myself. Even if they don't compete with 2002s, they do sound good for a really cheap set.

I would never buy a 101 crash or ride for myself though. They're pretty nasty. The PST3 ride doesn't sound bad on the clips. I'll be getting the 18" PST3 crash/ride for a student, and if i like that, i might consider the 20" ride for myself(i dislike my stagg dh ride).

What do people think of the pro mark r22 cymbal rattler? I was thinking of getting that for my stagg DH crash/ride. Maybe help make it useful secondary ride. I like sizzle rides :cool:
I might use the stagg hihat as secondary too.
 
ermghoti said:
Thicker cymbals are generally brighter/harsher, no?
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Potentially harsher if they're lower quality. I don't know about brighter. Thicker cymbals are generally slower and louder. I use medium 2002's which are heavier than regular 2002's, and they don't sound bright or harsh at all. They're really pretty smooth and have a wide array of ear pleasing overtones. :D

Now my RUDE 20" crash/ride is really heavy and can be overpowering and destructive to human ears, but that's why I bought it. That thing is an animal. It provides a powerful and full whoosh sound when riding it. You have to use a light touch when using it like a crash though. :p
 
Out of all of the lower end paiste hats (101 - pst 5), which do you all... not hate the most?

Please don't say you hate them all :p, if all of us could afford to go out and buy £250 hats we probably wouldn't be having this discussion! ;)

The pst 3 hats get my vote, generally they sound better to me, although the chick sounds a little too brassy, they don't sound that harsh comparitively. The pst 5 & 201 hats sound awful to me, the 101 sounds like someone's mixed a 2002 sample with added distortion!! :D
 
_brian_ said:
Out of all of the lower end paiste hats (101 - pst 5), which do you all... not hate the most?

Please don't say you hate them all :p, if all of us could afford to go out and buy £250 hats we probably wouldn't be having this discussion! ;)

The pst 3 hats get my vote, generally they sound better to me, although the chick sounds a little too brassy, they don't sound that harsh comparitively. The pst 5 & 201 hats sound awful to me, the 101 sounds like someone's mixed a 2002 sample with added distortion!! :D
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101 and pst3 are brass(cheap). 201 and pst5 are CuSn8 Bronze(same as 2002s). For cheap hihats, brass is better, imo. Brass crashes are horrible though.
 
pandamonk said:
101 and pst3 are brass(cheap). 201 and pst5 are CuSn8 Bronze(same as 2002s). For cheap hihats, brass is better, imo. Brass crashes are horrible though.
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There must be something in what you were originally arguing then lee, I thought the 101s were the only brass cymbals. I've picked out the only other brass cymbal family apart from the 101s just by listening to the samples.

If you want some decent sounding cheap hats, try the Sabian B8's.
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Do you rate the b8s higher than the paistes then greg? I guess you're talking about the b8 pro hats? I have a sabian xs20 ride, it's ok, nothing special. Good for only £26 SH I suppose :p
 
_brian_ said:
There must be something in what you were originally arguing then lee, I thought the 101s were the only brass cymbals. I've picked out the only other brass cymbal family apart from the 101s just by listening to the samples.



Do you rate the b8s higher than the paistes then greg? I guess you're talking about the b8 pro hats? I have a sabian xs20 ride, it's ok, nothing special. Good for only £26 SH I suppose :p
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I'd put the B8 hats higher than the cheap Paiste hats.

I'd probably say the B8 crashes sound better than the cheap Paiste crashes too.

The cheap Paiste rides sound better than the B8's though.
 
the B8 are the best budget cymbals IMO. and the 2002's whoop the shit out of the cheap Paistes, and this is from my experience actually trying several of them out at the drum shop.






can we say "shit" here? :confused:
 
pandamonk said:
Alright guys. I was trying out the sound-files on the paiste site as I'm looking for cymbals for drum pupils of mine, and I think I've mad e a bit of a discovery. Now i know you can't fully trust sound-files, especially on shitty computer speaks and headphones that I'm listenin on, but if you have no other way of testing them out, they can be quite good.

Anyway, i sold a drumkit last xmas to a girl i now teach. It came with a really cheap brass hihat, but this thing sounds really good, imo. So in looking for cymbals for her(girl 1) and another girl(girl 2) i teach, i came across a great deal on a set of Paiste 101s. I snapped them up, because they are just beginners and just want some cymbals. They arrived and i tried them out. The ride and crash are nothing special, but again i liked the brass hi-hat.

I'm giving girl 2 the hihat and the girl 1 the crash and ride(she already has that nice hihat and just wants cymbals). Anyway, girl 1 wants more than 1 cymbal and girl 2 wants a couple cymbals, so i was looking out for some more and ended up on the paiste site. I was trying out the sound-samples and thought it try out some of the dearer cymbals for comparison and here's what i found:

14" 101 brass hihat
14" 2002 medium hihat

18" PST3 crash/ride
20" 2002 ride
20" PST3 ride
22" 2002 ride

Is it just me, or does the 101 hihat sound pretty close to the 2002 medium. Not exactly the same in an A/B comparison, but close. And wouldn't they be hard to distinguish between without A/B comparison? 2002 is roughly 5-6x the price.

And the 18" and 20" PST3 rides, wouldn't they fit quite nicely in the 2002 range, with the 20" PST3 between 20" and 22" 2002s (the 14" hats actually fit between the 13" and 14" too). They're not exact again, but would also be quite difficult outwith A/B. The 2002s are roughly 3-4x the price.

I know that I'm listening on crap speakers/headphones, that sound-files aren't a good way to try cymbals, and my ears aren't perfect, but there doesn't appear to be much in it.

What do you think? Do the 2002s deserve to b 3-6x the price?
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They all sound just like my zildjian cymbals I bought used (they look like new though).
 
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