He did answer your question. I'm not a master psychologist, and I determined that he didn't like rap probably because of the subject matter. That's why most people who don't like rap don't like rap. I know, not all rap is about bitches, hos, guns, weed, and self-hype, but stereotypes are often based on actual truth.
Is there any song subject matter that you find hard to listen to ?
- Thread starter grimtraveller
- Start date
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Sorry buddykins, but he didn't answer the question in the post you quoted. If you recall, he also quoted female opera singing and extreme country {"that hokey pokey, ridiculously whiny, unnecessarily twangy, red-neck idiot stuff"}. All three are genres. Each genre has produced a variety of lyricists. Anyone with any balanced rather than stereotype pushing knowledge of those genres will know that quite a variety of subject matter can be found within any of those genres.
You don't need to convince me that stereotypes are often based on actual truth. I know this only too well. And for me, that has always been the weakness of stereotypes, not that there is no truth in them {there is}, but rather, that they are presented as the whole truth rather than what they really are which is one small aspect of a much, much bigger picture.
In fairness to Jamusic, he did clarify the aspects of rap lyric writing he objected to. Interestingly, my reply to his initial post wasn't about rap, but about rap, country and opera.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I find that people that dislike rap do so for a variety of reasons.
It is without doubt sometimes the lyrics.
Sometimes it's the attitude.
Sometimes it's because the one disliking it doesn't regard it as "proper" or "real" music, citing the absence of melodies, instruments, singing allied to the stealing/sampling of known hits of the past etc.
Sometimes, it's the older generation of Black people not liking their younger generation seemingly flying in the face of what they feel they've had to endure to get somewhere after centuries of "difficulties."
Sometimes it's because some White people feel threatened by either Black or Black inspired rebels flinging their notions of respectability and "fairness" in their faces and not remaining polite or harmless.
Sometimes it's because they just dislike the overall sound of the genre.
Sometimes it's because people dislike the influence it carries over their young........
And so on.
Neither is all rock. But almost exactly the same arguments have been put forth against rock music since the 1960s.
Funny thing is that the subject matter and the way certain people, especially women, are viewed is more or less identical across both genres. There's less gun glory in rock, true {unless you happen to be Ted Nugent}, but rap's gun consciousness seems to me to be absolutely in step with America in general and the notion of the right of the ordinary citizen to bear arms.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
And a hearty one, at that ! 
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
This ^ is the problem with the "I don't like rap because of the subject matter issue." Yeah, some rap is misogynistic, glorifies violence, and has a lot of foul language. Some rap is really thoughtful and deep; some is appropriate for children.
rayc
retroreprobate
I often dislike rap because of the subject matter but more often it's because I don't subscribe to the "multiple degrees of rhyme" school of thought.
For me there are perfect rhymes and, sometimes, humourous twisting rhymes. The rest aren't rhymes.
The sophistry that has created a science of claiming almost rhyming and called them family rhymes etc is just sophistry.
I'm happy with blank verse but cringe in any form of sung/spoken lyric that cops the close enough badge of honour.
See the attached RHYME FAMILY TABLE and an example of it put to work making rhyming lists (supposedly the M.O. of one Marshal Mathers).
For me they exemplify the failure to find the right word.
The tables are from the Free Berkley Songwriting Course and are a large part of the reason I dropped it after a month.
I did the sessions involving the rhyming systems and passed those components but they and other silly things like only counting stressed syllables etc struck me as constructions specifically created to create a course of study and were, for me personally, restrictions that cramped my personal writing style.
For me there are perfect rhymes and, sometimes, humourous twisting rhymes. The rest aren't rhymes.
The sophistry that has created a science of claiming almost rhyming and called them family rhymes etc is just sophistry.
I'm happy with blank verse but cringe in any form of sung/spoken lyric that cops the close enough badge of honour.
See the attached RHYME FAMILY TABLE and an example of it put to work making rhyming lists (supposedly the M.O. of one Marshal Mathers).
For me they exemplify the failure to find the right word.
The tables are from the Free Berkley Songwriting Course and are a large part of the reason I dropped it after a month.
I did the sessions involving the rhyming systems and passed those components but they and other silly things like only counting stressed syllables etc struck me as constructions specifically created to create a course of study and were, for me personally, restrictions that cramped my personal writing style.
jonny deep
Disappointing Member
Maybe they work for some people? Anyone here got anything much out of them?
I wonder if they're like the courses and seminars you can take on spread betting and other forms of trading, where some 'guru' (anyone who describes themselves or others as a 'guru' outside of the context of Hinduism is a moron) gives away all their 'secrets' for £500. If they're such experts, why aren't they keeping their 'secrets' to themselves and making millions. I think I've ranted about this before on here. Apologies for any duplication.
BroKen_H
Re-member
The problem is, if your child listens to the good stuff, it is too easy to slide into the bad. I'm not knocking rap music (and I surely don't want to get another 40 page parenting derail going), but you've got to protect those children and keeping them from some things is healthy for them...like hot burners and genres of music that you wouldn't like them to envelope (even though there's a lot of good in it.)
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Is there a single genre of music that that can't apply to though ? Even taking bubblegum, which on the surface seems pretty harmless and was aimed at "the kids", if you read what many of the lyric writers say about the true sexual content of what they were saying, few parents would be all that au fait with their 7, 8 and 9 year olds digesting that. It's a bit like telly, instead of saying "there is some good stuff there but so much of it is dangerous and negative, therefore you're not watching any of it" does one not have to go through some sort of sifting process ? In a way, those that take the view "all rap/punk/heavy metal/R&B {or whichever genre} is rubbish/negative/a bad influence" leave themselves an easier fight to have ! Things in entertainment and the arts are black or they are white.
But the real world is a mix of what is lousy and what is good and often, context blurs those lines.
It seems to me, just from what I've seen in my experience, that the people that find these types of "courses" useful are the same people that tend to want to write easily digestible salable mainstream sounding inoffensive easy to listen to radio friendly music. Those types are the the people that find these "courses" worthwhile.
BroKen_H
Re-member
Yes Grimm, even in Christian genres there are good and bad examples. There is no genre with more dissension. The point is not drawing a line and standing on it, but maybe drawing a line and taking a step back.
Parents cannot (literally can't) take the time to preview everything that goes into their kids heads through eyes and ears. You have to lay down some rules, follow up on those rules, instill the values you wish for them to have, and hope for the best. It's the only parenting style I've ever heard described (no matter how complex the system was).
I choose not to watch tv at all. Not because I find 20% or 50% or even 90% offensive, but because it wastes my time. Time is one resource we cannot replenish. If I watch something on Netflix or Vudu, I can stop at any time, pause to go to the john, and pick back up or restart when I want. I don't have to see offensive (some people obviously like them) commercials and I can stop watching immediately when something offends me and switch to something else.
Anyway, this is not an anti-tv rant. The point is, it's up to the parents to do the best they can to keep their kids from undermining themselves. Certain genres promote (or are public image connected to) specific bad things. Many people don't like that. I'm one. This is my opinion. I'm not forcing it on anyone, just stating it. I appreciate your opinion, and understand what you're saying. But it's the difference between sieving through mud for a diamond and sieving through rocks for gravel. Some genres are just easier to find good in than others. I believe we're in agreement on that, at least. I like some rap music, although there is violence and sexuality voiced in SOME of the lyrics. I like some country music, even though there is divorce and immorality in SOME of the lyrics. I like Rock, even though there is drugs and rebellion written into SOME of the lyrics. It's a matter of picking the gems out of the rock pile.
Parents cannot (literally can't) take the time to preview everything that goes into their kids heads through eyes and ears. You have to lay down some rules, follow up on those rules, instill the values you wish for them to have, and hope for the best. It's the only parenting style I've ever heard described (no matter how complex the system was).
I choose not to watch tv at all. Not because I find 20% or 50% or even 90% offensive, but because it wastes my time. Time is one resource we cannot replenish. If I watch something on Netflix or Vudu, I can stop at any time, pause to go to the john, and pick back up or restart when I want. I don't have to see offensive (some people obviously like them) commercials and I can stop watching immediately when something offends me and switch to something else.
Anyway, this is not an anti-tv rant. The point is, it's up to the parents to do the best they can to keep their kids from undermining themselves. Certain genres promote (or are public image connected to) specific bad things. Many people don't like that. I'm one. This is my opinion. I'm not forcing it on anyone, just stating it. I appreciate your opinion, and understand what you're saying. But it's the difference between sieving through mud for a diamond and sieving through rocks for gravel. Some genres are just easier to find good in than others. I believe we're in agreement on that, at least. I like some rap music, although there is violence and sexuality voiced in SOME of the lyrics. I like some country music, even though there is divorce and immorality in SOME of the lyrics. I like Rock, even though there is drugs and rebellion written into SOME of the lyrics. It's a matter of picking the gems out of the rock pile.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
That's an interesting way of putting it.
rayc
retroreprobate
I tried the corse becasue I needed to do something at the time - work was a mire of hatred and backstabbing, my prep & planning was done and I needed metal stimulus.
I didn't get it from the course - quite the opposite - it was, despite the nice chap and his successful career, bogged down in dogma and tamplates from the top and misunderstanding & lack of insight from the bottom (including myself). These things produced frustration and a need to "kick against the pricks" so I opted out.
All I learnt that was useful was just how much I don't like excuses for poor rhyming.
I didn't get it from the course - quite the opposite - it was, despite the nice chap and his successful career, bogged down in dogma and tamplates from the top and misunderstanding & lack of insight from the bottom (including myself). These things produced frustration and a need to "kick against the pricks" so I opted out.
All I learnt that was useful was just how much I don't like excuses for poor rhyming.
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
The trick Broken_h is drawing the line in a sensible place. If you want to say "my kids aren't allowed to listen to anything heavier than CCM", that's fine. I think it limits you to a pretty lousy subset of music, but I can respect the position.
If you disallow rap but allow rock, heavy metal, or even pop, well that's a bit more problematic. If nothing else, there is definitely some troubling racial context to singling out rap.
As to Eminem and off rhymes. I twitch whenever I hear him "rhyme" "detroit" and "going".
If you disallow rap but allow rock, heavy metal, or even pop, well that's a bit more problematic. If nothing else, there is definitely some troubling racial context to singling out rap.
As to Eminem and off rhymes. I twitch whenever I hear him "rhyme" "detroit" and "going".
BroKen_H
Re-member
The trick Broken_h is drawing the line in a sensible place. If you want to say "my kids aren't allowed to listen to anything heavier than CCM", that's fine. I think it limits you to a pretty lousy subset of music, but I can respect the position.
If you disallow rap but allow rock, heavy metal, or even pop, well that's a bit more problematic. If nothing else, there is definitely some troubling racial context to singling out rap.
Point is, I never limited them at all. I gave them the values I hoped they'd live by. Listened with them, and encouraged good music, pointed out bad words and meanings in music and let them do what they wanted (within limits). The brownie example always gets them thinking ("It only has one bad word in the song." prompts me to tell them we'll bake brownies, and we'll only put one dog turd in the mix.)