How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

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re:shure sm-7/rode consistancy

Harvey, your comments give me renewed respect for my "421".
I'm tempted to "moonwalk" over to a dealer to try the SM-7.
I just sold a Rode NT1 on e-bay, when I purchased it from Guitar
Center it was the best of three NT1's that were "test driven" so
my experience also validates your comment about sound consistancy.
 
rode mics

to my knowledge, the capsules of first series of rode mics (NT2, NT1) were manufactured in china. Today, the whole production takes place in australia. The consistency of the latest models seems to be very good.
Harvey, ìf you can get your hands on a NTK or an nt1000 to test it, that would be great! I think that all of us here would be very interested in your opinion.
but again, we got sidetracked...
 
Re: rode mics

h kuhn said:
to my knowledge, the capsules of first series of rode mics (NT2, NT1) were manufactured in china. Today, the whole production takes place in australia. The consistency of the latest models seems to be very good.
I'm really glad to hear they got their consistancy problem solved. I'd like to give them another try. You may have notice that I've limited my comments to the earlier models that I did hear, but I expressed concern about the problem solely from their history.

Harvey, ìf you can get your hands on a NTK or an nt1000 to test it, that would be great! I think that all of us here would be very interested in your opinion. but again, we got sidetracked...
I'll try to get to it, but things are getting crazy around here. I got a call from the head of Sound Projects microphones and he wants me to listen to his mics as well. I never planned to be the "poster boy" for low end mics and products, but in a way, it's kinda cool. I got burned a couple of times, listening to magazine reviews or reading the spec sheets, before I learned how to read between the lines.

I run a small recording studio in the middle of nowhere, and I'm on a tight budget, always looking for the best stuff at the lowest prices, the same as many of you. The only difference basically is that I've had a lotta years of listening to really good mics and understanding trade-offs in manufacturing. Since I'm not a "reviewer", but a potential "end user", I don't hafta worry about offending anybody, or trying to make a living from reviewing.

If some of my "impressions" (of products I've listened to) match your impressions, then we're probably on a similar wavelength, and my comments on other products may help you narrow some of your choices. I ain't no god; I'm just an old recording engineer, trying to get by, and help people avoid some of the mistakes I made when starting out.
 
I think everyone here appreciates what your doing here.
I know I do. I can't believe that someone of your caliber is
babysitting us. Glad you are though.

Well I tried to read the docs you gave us from Nuemman.
I was doing pretty good until I got to the Trig. I worked on
avionics for 6 years and I'm still not picking up on all of this.
Still hanging in there though.

I have only been reading about recording for 6 months, but when I see Rodes making statments like "If you don't like the NT1000 we will not only give you your money back put will kick in the same amount to buy you a Neumann TLM103." They got balls with their $329 mic. Then I read a review like the one at http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/articles/60D13B8C0E0AFA5986256A1D005425AB

How is a newbie suppose to read through all of this crap? Then the guy in the review says he thinks it could even be the best mic in the world. Since I live out in the middle of nowhere, South GA, I would have to drive 3 hours just to get to a pawn shop with a NT1, much less a store with real mics.

So that's why I'm at the "Harvey Gerst University" taking "Mics 101."

:D
 
I Love You, Harvey!

Strictly platonic, though...
But that's my way of letting you know what a blessing you have been around here.

And I am very seriously considering coming out to your studio to have you record a few of my tunes, because i can see your level of integrity on every answer you give.

Thanks Again!!!
DJ
 
Re: I Love You, Harvey!

Dougie Johnson said:
Strictly platonic, though...
But that's my way of letting you know what a blessing you have been around here.

And I am very seriously considering coming out to your studio to have you record a few of my tunes, because i can see your level of integrity on every answer you give.

Thanks Again!!!
DJ
Well, I'm flattered. Yes, our studio stays pretty busy, and maybe it's because we DO take an active part in helping people get the best recording they can get, without having to take out a bank loan. All of us at ITR love all types of music, and that's a big part of it.

In the matter of this thread, that's a different story. I don't like hype, and I don't like some reviewers and some manufacturers trying to mislead people with false claims and slanted reviews and ads.

I sure as hell didn't get involved with this recent thing of testing mics because I wanted to be a reviewer. As it turned out, there were a lot of other people looking for evaluations from a person that didn't have anything to prove and had enough experience in the business to separate the hype from the tripe. Having my own small "bottom-feeder" studio puts me in the same boat as many of the people here - what's the best bang for the buck?

The only difference between myself and other people here is that I have a lot of experience designing stuff (including microphones) for major companies, so I have the technical end kinda covered, and, coming from the L.A. studio environment, I'm also familiar with the sound of the better microphones. Since I was also in manufacturing and sales, I know the trade-offs and how to sell the "sizzle", having turned out a ton of "hype" myself.

This thread isn't so much about what to get, or what not to get, as it is about learning to make your own decisions about products and how to really learn to hear what's good and what's not. As soon as we get finished with the "what to use where and when" part of this, I'm gonna cover some of the specs and how to really read between the lines, whether it's an ad, a review, or a spec sheet. I'm sure I'll make some enemies before I'm all done.
 
Nearing the end.

Ok, here's some tips on miking some other instruments:

Horns, what mics and polar patterns to use
Most horns put out a lot of energy, so close miking is not a good idea. About 18" away is a good starting place. Start at the bell level and work your way up to pick up more breathtones and output from the keys, in the case of saxaphones.


Generally, you can use a large diaphragm dynamic, a ribbon, or a large diaphragm condenser mic with pretty good results. The Sennheiser 421 is a great choice for a dynamic, almost any kind of ribbon, or a !" condenser mic. Cardioid is usually the pattern of choice.

Choirs, pipe organs, and large stuff
Small diaphragm spaced condenser omnis or cardioids generally work best, pulled way back to capture some of the room as well. I usually split the sound source into 3rds and put a mic at the 1/3 and 2/3 points. (If the source is 60 feet wide, I'd start with mics 20 feet in and 20 feet apart and adjust from there.) How far away depends on how much reverb would sound good. I'd start with about 1/3 of the way back from the source, then move in closer or out further, depending on how much reverb I heard in the phones.

Flutes, clarinets, and misc. woodwinds
I like small omnis, but cardioids may also work fine too. Try miking from below the instrument to minimize breath noises, but this really requires a lot of trial and error experimenting to get right.

Concert and Celtic harps

Very difficult to get a good sound in a less than perfect room, but generally, a pair of X/Y small cardioids about 4 to 6 feet away, placed as high as the instrument is tall, and aimed slightly downward. Use your quietest mics, since these things don't put out a lot of sound and pedal noises can often be a problem. A couple of hints: Try putting the harpist (harpy?) in the corner of the room, facing out, to pick up a little more fullness without using eq. Also, try putting the harp on a 6 foot by 6 foot plywood sheet on the floor to help bounce a little more top end into the mics.

Misc. Percussion
For tambourines, cowbells, etc., a small omni is usually best, placed about 2 feet above the instrument. Watch your levels, and don't exceed -10dB, since most of the energy won't be shown on your meters. For misc. drums, try a large diaphragm dynamic mic, or a small cardioid condenser, and try miking close to the top, and even try miking from below the drum.

Digeredoos, harmonicas, and other odd shit
A dig is like a single organ pipe - with weird ass mouth stuff attached. Use a small condenser cardioid slightly off-axis from the end of the thing and adjust the height to pick up more mouth action. Harmonica players usually have their own mic, but if not, try your cheapest dynamic into a small guitar amp with a little bit of distortion. For clean harmonica, try an omni, about 1 foot above the player and 6" in front, aimed straight down. For other odd shit, I usually reach for an omni or small cardioid to "capture the moment".

OK, what have I left out?
 
I know for a fact that I won't be able to match the equipment you probably use, but if you were recording a jazz piano trio, what mics would you use and where would you set them? I'm especially interested in the mic choices for piano (for the future - I'm happy with my 603's for now), and the placement on the drums. I'm still working on the acoustic bass thing, best sound so far has come from a dynamic mic about 9" in front of the bridge, believe it or not...I'm going with that until I find something better.
 
Chris F said:
I know for a fact that I won't be able to match the equipment you probably use, but if you were recording a jazz piano trio, what mics would you use and where would you set them? I'm especially interested in the mic choices for piano (for the future - I'm happy with my 603's for now), and the placement on the drums. I'm still working on the acoustic bass thing, best sound so far has come from a dynamic mic about 9" in front of the bridge, believe it or not...I'm going with that until I find something better.
Chris, I think you already have it pretty well nailed. Put together the techniques you're using for piano, bass and drums and go for it. Try to avoid eq, compression and effects when recording, and then see what it needs when you mix down to stereo.

You'll probably want to thin out the upper bass of the upright bass a little during mixdown (around 250 to 400 Hz), and maybe add a little 12kHz sheen to the piano, but everything should sit pretty solid in the mix. Don't make the piano too wide. My mic choices would be the same as yours - small cardioids in X/Y, near the lip of the piano. Record a couple of minutes of the whole band playing, then listen to it back and make any adjustments as needed. When it sounds right, it is right.
 
What has worked very good for my Flügelhorn is micing it with an mc012 omni, about 30-50cm from the bell with the mic perpendicular to the airstream. Sounds very mellow but not nasal.
 
h kuhn said:
What has worked very good for my Flügelhorn is micing it with an mc012 omni, about 30-50cm from the bell with the mic perpendicular to the airstream. Sounds very mellow but not nasal.
Flugelhorn, eh? You mean a trumpet on steroids? When I recorded Buddy Childers jazz flugelhorn many years ago, I think I used an old Sony condenser mic, about 18"to 24" away, and at an angle to the bell, but don't hold me to it - that was a long time (and many drugs) ago.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Flugelhorn, eh? You mean a trumpet on steroids? When I recorded Buddy Childers jazz flugelhorn many years ago, I think I used an old Sony condenser mic, about 18"to 24" away, and at an angle to the bell, but don't hold me to it - that was a long time (and many drugs) ago.

it's a shame, but I don't know even one recording of buddy childers (and I am holding a master degree in Jazz trumpet...)
Many horn players emit a lot of ugly noises while playing (grunning, breath noises, saliva coming out in little bubbles at the corners of their mouth...especially the Jazz players.) UNless they play very loud, these can be rather disturbing, even in a mix. As these noises are high pitched, angeling the mic away from the bell (and the players mouth) can help. This is at least what I found out. And the omni pattern helps to get some room reflections, makes it more "live" (hate artificial reverb...), and, as the mic is actually aiming to the side, still captuiring the direct sound.
 
forgot

Harvey Gerst said:
Flugelhorn, eh? You mean a trumpet on steroids? .

I feel it more close to a french horn than a trumpet. And this is not only true for the way you play it, it's also true for the way the sound develops, Flügel NEEDS roomreflections, close micing is a nono for me!
 
BUddy Childers, the lead player of the Kenton Band??? I am shure that he had a lot of control over his horn!
 
h kuhn said:
BUddy Childers, the lead player of the Kenton Band??? I am sure that he had a lot of control over his horn!
LOL, Yeah, that Buddy Childers. We were pretty good friends back then (I'd stay at his house in Vegas, and he stayed with me for a while when he moved back to L.A.).

Before I got into folk and rock, I was pretty heavy into the L.A. jazz scene, hanging out with Buddy, Freddie Gruber, Paul Horn, Ornette Coleman, Charlie Haden, Don Ellis, and all their friends. Hell, my first guitar teacher (at $5 an hour) was Barney Kessel.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
LOL, Yeah, that Buddy Childers. We were pretty good friends back then (I'd stay at his house in Vegas, and he stayed with me for a while when he moved back to L.A.).

Before I got into folk and rock, I was pretty heavy into the L.A. jazz scene, hanging out with Buddy, Freddie Gruber, Paul Horn, Ornette Coleman, Charlie Haden, Don Ellis, and all their friends. Hell, my first guitar teacher (at $5 an hour) was Barney Kessel.

Wow. You are my man. There are a lots of questions burnuing on my nails, but I want to bring them in proper form before asking (to avoid the misunderstandings I was producing in this thread already)
In thirty years, we might be saying:
"Hell, the man we learned about microphones was Harvey Gerst, and we didn't even have to pay for it!"

I just read about Buddy Childers (on www.allaboutjazz.com ) that he is still recording, I want to go out and buy a cd of his!
BTW Do you know Don Rader?
 
Don Rader? Don't think I know him. Name doesn't sound familiar (but at my age, even my name doesn't sound familiar at times to me). You must remember that this was probably around 40 some years ago.

I just realized I left out miking electric guitars, which I'll try to cover today.
 
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