How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

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I guess what I don't understand yet about the 110 degree concept is the difference between creating the stereo image with the mic placement as opposed to using the pan left/right on the mixer....this is a concept which had not even occured to me until now. I guess that's why it says "newbie" under my name....

Harvey, get some rest and take care of your own stuff, I just read a little about the sciatic nerve issue and it sounds painful as hell. I'll bet that most of us have plenty of practical experimenting to do just to try out what you've given us so far. I know I do.

Good luck.
 
I read some stuff on sciatic.

"The worst thing you can do is get up and down repeatedly as this causes the nerve to become more irritated. "

Sounds like working in a recording studio would be bad.

Harvey, it sounds like you need a vacation.

FYI, They also said that ice was good, but painful.
 
c7sus said:
Hey Harvey..... if it's not too much trouble I'd like to hear your opinion about the old FRAP stuff. I've got two... an old Model T and a custom one-of-kind that Arnie put together for me in 85-86.... he wasn't doing real well back then. You wouldn't happen to know if he's still around, would you? Just curious. I've always liked the sound of those FRAPs. The custom one has a ten position bass rolloff, phase switch, and hi and low Z outs, plus an electric jack as well. I mounted the pickup in each of my guitars myself because I couldn't find anyone that would take the time to do it right. But I managed to find the sweet spot on both my Martins and I've never heard any piezos that can hold a candle to them.

Anyway, if you have an opinion, I'd love to hear it.....
Sorry, I can't help you on this one. I got burned out on the music business and got out of it in 1978. They tracked me down and dragged me back into the business in 1987, so there's 9 years that are just a blank. I remember the FRAP name, but not much about it.
 
h kuhn said:
Harvey,
you recorded Ornette Coleman??? I just checked some of your old threads on the gm forum. Do you remember what year it was? Is the record still available? And, most important, the question is burning on my nails: Did you use individual mics for each musician or did you put up room mics (or a combination)?

to the "110° issue": wouldn't at this angle something that is actually behind the mics appear far left and right in the stereo image and thus corrupt the fidelity of the recording (suposing cardioid mics)?

thanks for beeing back with us, hope the nerve is better (my mom was almost paralysed because of sciatic...but the docs were able to help her and now she's kicking again)
Harald
Yes, I recorded Ornette when he was just starting out He played at the Saturday night jam session at "Georgia's Place" in El Monte, and I would pick him up and drive him there (with his white plastic saxophone). The house band consisted of Charlie Haden on bass, Freddie Gruber on drums, and I can't remember the piano player's name, but he was killer as well. It was in the early 60s sometime, as I recall, but I can't remember what year. I used a Berlant Concertone 20 tape deck and two Capps condensor mics (set about 6 feet apart).

The 110º angle is just a suggestion. It seemed to give me a wider sound stage than the 90º angle did and I prefer it. It really depends on what your recording, AND the room you're recording in.

This sciatic nerve pinch is a work stopper, for sure. I was in so much pain (and no sleep), that on Sunday, at 5:30 in the morning, I took a couple of heavy duty pain pills, and crawled into the bath tub to try to relieve some of the pain.

My wife found me a half hour later, passed out in the tub with about an inch of water covering the entire bathroom floor (I fell asleep with the bathtub water running full blast). Luckily, my leg stayed locked, which kept me from going under (it's a big, deep "garden" tub).

The pain has subsided quite a bit since these last two visits to the chiropractor, so I'm hoping to be recovered by this weekend.
 
Chris F said:
I guess what I don't understand yet about the 110 degree concept is the difference between creating the stereo image with the mic placement as opposed to using the pan left/right on the mixer....this is a concept which had not even occured to me until now. I guess that's why it says "newbie" under my name....

Harvey, get some rest and take care of your own stuff, I just read a little about the sciatic nerve issue and it sounds painful as hell. I'll bet that most of us have plenty of practical experimenting to do just to try out what you've given us so far. I know I do.

Good luck.
You still pan the mics hard left and right, but the placement is critical for maintaining the accuracy of the stereo image. If done correctly, there are no phasing problems what so ever, and you get a perfect stereo spread. That's the goal of every two-mic stereo imaging system and they all have different advantages and disadvantages, depending on the source.

The sciatic thing is painful beyond my belief of what painful could be. At times, you can't stand, sit down, or even lie down and get any relief. The slightest touch of anything on the inflamed nerve (that runs the whole length of your leg) is agonizing. And then it gets worse. :(
 
This is one of the best threads I've come across - many thanks to all participants, esp. Harvey Gerst. Your explanations are great and clear enough for even a newbie such as me to follow.

Thanks again!

- Wil

PS:


I have a question though...

Harvey Gerst said:
...<snip>but you can also position the mics close to the stand and create a Blumlien pair which will give you very good separation. You can build a Blumlien stand by using a piece of plastic about 12"x 12" and gluing a mouse pad on each side.

I always thought a Blumlein pair was a pair of figure-of-eights mounted coincident at 90 deg to each other, and at 45 deg to the stereo-plane. The plastic device you describe sounds more like a Jecklin Disk used in "Baffled Stereo", or am I missing something ? (I usually do, so it'll be no surprise... :> )

- Wil

15 mins later: OK OK, my own ignorance never ceases to amaze me! I think I understand! Here's an interesting link describing Alan Blumlein's contributions to science & technology, amongst which is the idea of "binaural" or "stereo" (as it has come to be called).

http://www.doramusic.com/Stereo.htm

especially chapter 3:

http://www.doramusic.com/chapterthree.htm

I think the Blumlein Baffle and the Jecklin Disk seem to be the same thing - or am I still missing something?

- Wil
 
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Wil Davis said:
This is one of the best threads I've come across - many thanks to all participants, esp. Harvey Gerst. Your explanations are great and clear enough for even a newbie such as me to follow.

Thanks again!

PS:

I have a question though...

I always thought a Blumlein pair was a pair of figure-of-eights mounted coincident at 90 deg to each other, and at 45 deg to the stereo-plane. The plastic device you describe sounds more like a Jecklin Disk used in "Baffled Stereo", or am I missing something ? (I usually do, so it'll be no surprise... :> )

- Wil
Wil you didn't miss anything. I meant the Jecklin Disk. That'll teach me to type when I'm in pain.

The 3 coincidence techniques are:

X/Y (which does used 2 cardioid or omni pattern micss mounted coincident to each other at classically 90º, and at 45º to the stereo-plane),

the Jecklin Disc (which is actually what I was describing),

and the Blumlein pair (which does used 2 Figure 8 mics, mounted coincident to each other at 90º, and at 45º to the stereo-plane). I'll get into the pictures with circles and arrows a little later.

Thanks for catching that and keeping me honest.
 
c7sus (on of my favourite chords (c:

>>The mics are an NTV and an NT2

it is more common to use 2 identical mics for xy. the difference in frequency response between 2 different mics may cause phasing effects. BTW the nicest sound we got from an accoustic was with two mc012 about 70cm apart and 1m from the source, with omni capsules (this, of course, ist NOT coincident and has got nothing to do with xy!). Harveys over the shoulder tecnique was close second (but we had problems with noise from the player's skirt). The aim of the recording was to achieve a "being right there" feeling, lots of room while mono compatibility was no issue.
 
I notice that nobody has mentioned that much under-used (in my opinion) coincident set up of MS (Mid-Side). I never cease to be amazed at the results possible from what is essentially a very simple technique. The main advantages of using this method being (1) the two channels can be recorded and the stereo mixed at a later time, and changed as seen fit, and (2) the mono-compatibility of MS is just about perfect. Anyone else use it?

- Wil
 
Re: c7sus (on of my favourite chords (c:

h kuhn said:

>>The mics are an NTV and an NT2

it is more common to use 2 identical mics for xy. the difference in frequency response between 2 different mics may cause phasing effects. BTW the nicest sound we got from an accoustic was with two mc012 about 70cm apart and 1m from the source, with omni capsules (this, of course, ist NOT coincident and has got nothing to do with xy!). Harveys over the shoulder tecnique was close second (but we had problems with noise from the player's skirt ). The aim of the recording was to achieve a "being right there" feeling, lots of room while mono compatibility was no issue.

Man, that "under the skirt" noise can be quite the distraction. Better watch yourself! ;)
 
>>we had problems with noise from the player's skirt

LOL
sorry, that sould say "shirt", not skirt . I am not a native speaker...
 
"but we had problems with noise from the player's skirt"

Look, if you're serious about this thing, you have to cover *every* aspect of the situation. Even what people have for lunch before they come in and record. Here are some words to look up in your dictionary: beans, cabbage, onions, beer.
 
>>>Look, if you're serious about this thing, you have to cover *every* aspect of the situation. Even what people have for lunch before they come in and record. Here are some words to look up in your dictionary: beans, cabbage, onions, beer.<<<

I was micing over his shoulder, not between his legs. But i think we got sidetracked...
 
Elle said:
Harvey,

What would you use to record piano? (upright)
With an upright piano, there are no rules, but in general, I would use a couple of small condenser mics, but where is the big question, rather than what. Sound radiates from an upright piano from a lot of different directions. Opening the top and aiming a mic into the piano's innards usually results in very unpleasant jangle.

I'd first pull the piano awayfrom any nearby walls, and try a mic pointed at the back side of the piano (the sounding board), listen and decide what else was missing. Maybe a mic on the front somewhere as well, checking for phase, and trying to balance the two mics to get the full range sound without the jangle.

Every upright piano is different and you hafta experiment with different mic locations. Getting the mics further back in a good room will give you a more balanced sound, but room noise then becomes a factor.
 
Vocals - Why Are They So Hard To Get Right?

The two most asked questions are what's a good mic for acoustic guitar and what's a good mic for vocals. Most people actually want one mic for both, but if you've been following this whole thread, you know that the mic requirements for acoustic guitar are different than the mic requirements for vocals. So, what's so special about vocals and vocal mics?

There are three types of mics that are usually used for vocals:

1. Large condenser mics
2. Dynamic (moving coil) mics
3. Ribbon mics (a special class of dynamic mic design)

There are two types of patterns usually used for vocals:

1. Cardioid (most typical)
2. Bi-directional (Figure 8)

All of the above mics and patterns have "proximity effect" in common (more upper bass boost as you get closer to the mic).

With these mics, you can adjust the distance and the angle between the singer and the mic to get a wide variety of tonal effects till you find the right balance for a particular singer and song. Off axis response will often vary dramatically with large condenser and dynamic mics, and when coupled with the "proximity effect", you have a wide range of tones to choose from.

The general working range for most LD condenser and ribbon mics is anywhere from 6 to 18" away. Dynamic mics are usually best under 6" away. But there is no hard and fast rule there. For intimate softer ballads, you may want the singer to "eat the mic", recording them from 2" away, or even closer. Up close, wind blasts are a concern and a pop stopper, foam wind screen, or even both may be required.

Remember that "proximity effect" starts in the upper bass (around 400 Hz), and this is exactly the start of the human vocal range. It can add richness to a thinner voice, but as with most things, it can be overdone. You adjust "proximity effect" by adjusting the distance between the mic and the singer - closer for more, further back for less.

Use different mic angles to adjust the high frequency response - straight on for maximum highs, off axis for less highs.

As mentioned earlier, most singers breath blasts are aimed slightly downward, so try to get the mic above that blast when possible. I try to mic from about nose or forehead high, aimed slightly down towards the mouth, but if a person is more comfortable with a stage mic at mouth level, don't be afraid to give it a try.

Some condenser mics tend to have some bright high end peaks which may help a singer that doesn't have a lot of high frequency content in their voice, but it's all too easy to just end up with an overly bright vocal. You usually look for a mic with a smooth top end (like a ribbon), or a mic with a gentle high frequency rise.

With mics like the AKG C3000, some of the Rode mics, or the lower end LD ATs, watch for peaky high end response that may result in an overly bright vocal track that high end eq can't fix later.

Try to choose the mic that doesn't require any eq when recording, if possible. That's where the right sound begins. Use compression sparingly when doing the tracking - you can always add more later.

I try to avoid commiting to any effects while tracking, so that I have more options available during mixing. You can't turn the vocal reverb down later if you record with it during tracking.

Chris Fitzgerald has been doing some experimenting with upright bass mic placements and he might want to share some of the things he's found so far.

After that, we'll discuss miking drums, then grand pianos, then horns, and exotic instruments.
 
Newbie alert....

First of all this is all too cool. Thanks a bunch.

I understood your last posts a lot more than the X/Y technique
stuff. I do plan to go back and re-read everything.

Newbie questions:

#1 Would you ever mic vocals using two mics? To get a fuller sound? Is there another interesting technique for this?

#2 What music in the public domain do you feel is well produced?
ie miking, tones, ect...

Thanks, Jerry
 
Just wanted to peek in here and mention that I finally got to play around with the Marshall MXL1000 I got last week. Paid $54.50 shipped for it from a guy on ebay. I recorded a little bit of mono acoustic guitar last week. I was pretty impressed with it.

Today I finally got to play around with some of the stereo techniques Harvey's been talking about here. I'm using a Rode NT2, so it's probably not an ideal match with the Marshall. I may pick up another one to match it soon.

I first tried an X-Y pattern, and originally thought it sounded pretty good, but upon listening to it later thought it sounded "flat and one-dimensional." I don't know is this was a phasing problem or what.

I decided to try a different route Harvey suggested, and I put the Marshall over my right shoulder and then ended up with the NT2 about 16" in front of the 12th fret pointed toward the soundhole. That seemed to work pretty well - nice separation, well-rounded tone. The main problem with the sound is my acoustic, an Alvarez, which isn't the best sounding guitar in the world. I may try to borrow the Taylor a friend of mine owns. (I recorded a VERY rough, just-messing-around wav of this, if anyone's REALLY interested... lol)

Anyway, just wanted to update ya on my micing progress, and to let you know (again) that this thread has been really helpful for all of us. :)
 
Re: Newbie alert....

JerryD said:
First of all this is all too cool. Thanks a bunch.
Glad you're enjoying the thread and getting some stuff out of it

I understood your last posts a lot more than the X/Y technique
stuff. I do plan to go back and re-read everything.

Newbie questions:

#1 Would you ever mic vocals using two mics? To get a fuller sound? Is there another interesting technique for this?

If you mean would I mic a vocal in stereo, the answer is no, never. With most vocalists moving around even slightly, the phasing problems would be enormous. There are two times when I would use two or more mics on vocals:

1. If the singer has a very wide dynamic range (from a whisper to shouting in the same song), I might use two mics recording to two tracks; one mic set so that it doesn't clip on the loud parts, and the second mic set up to pick up just the soft parts and to hell with clipping on the loud parts, then compile them in the mix, bringing up the soft mic in the mix during the soft sections, and killing it during the loud parts.

2. An interesting technique that David Bowie used is to set up a second mic about 15 feet away and gate it so that it only comes on during louder parts, and then a third mic set up around 30 feet away and gated to only come on during the very loudest part of the vocals. This gives you two natural delays of 15ms and 30 ms, yet keeps the main vocals very up front. Very cool trick.


#2 What music in the public domain do you feel is well produced?
ie miking, tones, ect...

Thanks, Jerry

"Public Domain" has a very specific meaning in the music business. It means music that is free of copyright protection and may be recorded by anyone without having to pay royalties (like old folk songs). I assume you meant what music is out right now that I think is well produced etc.

Anything produced by George Massenburg or Al Schmitt will always be well recorded and an inspiration for me to try and come close, even though I know I won't. There are some artists I don't even particularly like, but their recordings are beautifully recorded and well produced.
 
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A couple of things: Harvey has invited me to share the results of my experiments in micing acoustic bass. I'm more than happy to do that if anybody really cares, but I know that the DB is a pretty esoteric instrument for most recordings these days, so in the interest of not cluttering this already very long thread, I'll wait and post if anybody's interested in that.

Second, I'm in the market for a Large Diaphragm mic to use for the purpose of recording the Acoustic bass. I could go about as high as $350 if needed, anything more and my "financial advisor" (read: WIFE) would give birth to some sort of bovine creature or other....so if anyone has any suggestions on a mic, please PM or email me your input. All input will be appreciated, thanks.
 
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