How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

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Have you done acoustic guitars?

Harvey,

Have you covered acoustic guitars in this thread?

I'm not seeing it. Is there another thread that you covered this in?

BTW, I have been searching this BBS for other threads. I have learned a ton of stuff.

So are you going to tell us who Mixerman really is? :)
 
I've covered some of the basic theory in this thread of why miking an acoustic guitar is so difficult, but I guess I should go into some techniques that are a little more specific. I'm about to post miking an electric guitar in a few minutes (I just finished the drawing for that), and then I'll see if I can sum up acoustic guitar miking next.
 
Ok, let's mic an electric guitar.

This is gonna be another very long post, so hang in there. I'll try and keep all the techie stuff to a minimum, but there are some concepts that are kinda hard to explain without getting a little technical, so ask questions if you don't understand something - it's probably just due to my poor explanation. Before we get into the miking part, we hafta talk about how speakers radiate sound, so here comes the first drawing:

speaker.gif


Figure 1. Imagine a speaker suspended in space - the sound comes off the front of the cone, AND off the back of the cone, more or less equally. The problem with this kind of setup is that the low notes coming off the back side of the speaker cancel the low notes coming off the front of the speaker. Their wavelength is much bigger than the diameter of the speaker and they just go around the frame easily.

Figure 2. Now imagine we've mounted the speaker in the exact center of a huge board 40 feet wide by 40 feet tall. The speaker is still radiating in all directions, but unless a low note is at least 20 feet long, it ain't gonna get around the edge of that board easily. Since we eliminated the possibility of cancellations, the bass comes way up when your standing in front of the speaker, compared to the speaker that was just hanging there on a string. As far as we've concerned, it's now radiating into a hemisphere.

Figure 3. Now put the speaker down low on the board and imagine a floor has been added. What happens? The bass notes double in colume since they're now radiating into one half of a hemisphere. If you put the speaker at the juction of the floor and two walls (a corner), the bass would double again, since all the bass is now radiating into a quarter of a hemisphere. But what does this hafta do with miking an electric guitar? You're about to find out right now.

Figure 4. If we fold the board (shown in Figure 2.) into an open-backed box, we can still prevent a lot of the bass from wrapping around and cancelling out. Starting to get it? Bingo, you're basically looking at a side view of most open backed guitar cabinets, like a Fender Twin. The box prevents some of the low notes coming off the back of the speaker cone from getting around to the front and interferring with the notes coming off the front of the speaker. This arrangement works ok till you get down to around 90 - 120 Hz, and below, right at the nottom end range of a guitar. So how do we get a little more bottom end?

Figure 5. Make the box a little bigger and seal it completely. Now the back notes can't interfere. Recognize the design? A Marshall cabinet? Right!!!

Figure 6. As long as we've come this far, I threw this in. You take the sealed box, cut a hole in it, and then you can tune the air in the cabinet to create a "blowing across a Coke bottle" effect, to add some bottom where the speaker starts to give out.

Keep some of this in mind when I start this next section:

Miking the guitar cabinet.

Guitar amps come in many different configurations, but I'm gonna focus on miking the three most popular speaker designs:

Open back cabinet, single speaker.
Open back cabinet, dual speakers
Closed back cabinet, with 4 speakers.

Here comes another one of those damn drawings:

guit_mic.gif


Figure 1. The two-12" open back speaker combo is one of the most popular units of all time. There are 4 basic mic positions, with several variations:

1. Stick a mic right into the speaker, aimed at the center of the cone. Maximum high end, and least outside noise.

2. Stick a mic right into the speaker, aimed at the edge of the cone. Less high end, and a little more bass.

3. Pull back a bit (12 to 24") and aim a mic right between the speakers. More realistic, but inreased chance of phasing problems and more susceptable to room noise.

4. Use any of the first 3 methods and add a mic aimed at the back of the speaker. Try the phase switch and choose the position that sounds best to you.

What mic to use?

Try the Shure SM-57, or your kickdrum mic, or any good dynamic for positions 1 and 2. Positions 3 and 4 might use a ribbon or condenser mic to get a little fatter sound. I usually start with position 1 (one mic, pointed into the center of the cone), but I may add something like an AKG D122 on the outside edge of the other speaker to emphesize the bottom end a little.

Figure 2. The single speaker open back speaker cabinet is another popular design. The are same 4 basic mic positions are used:

1. Stick a mic right into the speaker, aimed at the center of the cone. Maximum high end, and least outside noise.

2. Stick a mic right into the speaker, aimed at the edge of the cone. Less high end, and a little more bass.

3. Pull back a bit (12 to 24") and aim a mic at the speaker. More realistic, but inreased chance of phasing problems and more susceptable to room noise.

4. Use any of the first 3 methods and add a mic aimed at the back of the speaker. Try the phase switch and choose the position that sounds best to you.

5. Repeat all 4 mic techniques, but put the amp on a bar stool or chair. Why? Go back to the very first drawing and look at Figure 3. By raising the amp, it now feeds into a hemisphere instead of a half hemisphere, lowering the bottom end a little. Pull the amp away from a wall for less bass, in closer to the wall for more bass. See how the first drawing is starting to fit in?

What mic to use?

Try the Shure SM-57, or your kickdrum mic, or any good dynamic for positions 1 or 2. Positions 3 and 4 might use a ribbon or condenser mic to get a little fatter sound. I usually start with position 1 (one mic, pointed into the center of the cone), but I may slide it till it's at the outside edge of the speaker to emphesize the bottom end a little.

Figure 3. is simply there to use up some space. I just thought it looked better with 6 drawings instead of 5.

Figure 4. is a standard 4x12 Marshall cabinet. You would use mic positions 1 and 2 for adjusting the high end relative to the bottom end (and remember, you're getting that 1/2 hemisphere bass boost from the floor). To lower some of the bottom end, move the mics to positions 3 and 4 (or try a 57 at position 3 AND a D112 at position 2, then blend them to one track, or record them wide apart to two tracks).

Figure 5. Marshall cabinet with distant miking. Try a ribbon mic, or a big condenser mic to get a fuller sound. Adjust the mic anywhere from about 2 to 10 feet away. If needed, also use one of the mic techniques in Figure 4.

Figure 6. Actually this one is for any cabinet. Scenario: The guitar player isn't happy with any of the mic setups you've tried so far. Have the guitar player play with the controls till he's happy with the sound. Tell him to freeze, right there. Put a mic close to his ear, pointed at the center of the cabinet, and go back and listen. Either an omni, small cardioid (dynamic or condenser), or a large cardioid will usually do fine. The mic is now hearing "exactly" what the guitar player heard in the room when he said he liked the sound. That should end any conflict.

Hey, we're nearing the end of this whole mess - just a few more things to clean up, and then we're done!!!
 
Thanks Harvey....Excellent.

Cool stuff.

The hemisphere idea is a Paradigm shift for me.

Question #1

Why wouldn't you put the dual speaker with the open back end into a chair. Wouldn't it have the same problems as the other cabinet configurations?

Question #2

Why wouldn't you leave the single speaker config on the floor so it would have more bass. I guess my question is why are you trying to reduce the bass when the single speaker would have less bass and need to be increased?

Question #3

3. Pull back a bit (12 to 24") and aim a mic right between the speakers. More realistic, but inreased chance of phasing problems and more susceptable to room noise.

Could you give a brief explanation of phasing problems or point me to a article that clears this problem up for me?

THanks Harvey this was great.
 
Re: Thanks Harvey....Excellent.

JerryD said:
Cool stuff.

The hemisphere idea is a Paradigm shift for me.

Question #1

Why wouldn't you put the dual speaker with the open back end into a chair. Wouldn't it have the same problems as the other cabinet configurations?

Good call!! Yes, moving the speaker off the floor can help an overly heavy bottom end and get the speaker sound closer to what the guitarist is hearing, once he adjusts the tone to compensate for the movement. And it's an alternative position for any kind of speaker cabinet, not just a single speaker setup.

Question #2

Why wouldn't you leave the single speaker config on the floor so it would have more bass. I guess my question is why are you trying to reduce the bass when the single speaker would have less bass and need to be increased?

Most players don't realize how much boost they're getting from the floor. In many cases, there's simply too much bottom end and it interfers with everything from the kick all the way to the main vocals.

Question #3

Could you give a brief explanation of phasing problems or point me to a article that clears this problem up for me?

Pretty simple really. When miking a multiple speaker cabinet from a distance (rather than right at the cone), there is a chance that you might get some comb filtering caused by phase differences between the different path lengths from the mic to each of the multiple speakers.

On the good side, this is one of the most benign distortions there is. The old Bozak and Bose speakers used multiple drivers and nobody really ever complained about them.There are probably some old AES papers on multiple driver phase cancellations somewhere, but I don't know of any on the net.


THanks Harvey this was great.
Hope this makes things a little clearer. I'd love to say I put those in to see if people are paying attention, but I didn't. Good catches and good questions.
 
Ya just gotta love this guy!!

Thanx again Harvey. Great pics :)


Jerry D,
I here are a couple definitions that I found; I couldn't find much in the way of really good articles/pages on phase (cancellation), most of what I found was just little pieces hear and there, kinda mentioning it but nothing really spetacular. :( Oh well, I hope these definitions help anyway.

Phase ("In-phase/Out-of-phase") Actually refers to the polarity of an electrical or acoustic signal. If two or more signals or devices are "out-of-phase" with respect to each other, cancellation or other disturbance of the combined output can result. Some examples of operating phase (polarity) definitions: "Positive sound pressure causes positive output" (microphones) or "positive input causes positive acoustic output" (speakers).

Phase Cancellation Undesirable dips and peaks in frequency response caused by mixing the outputs of two microphones which are picking up the same sound but with different arrival times. For example, this can occur when two microphones are placed near each other, but still with space between them; or when wireless microphone users stand next to each other.

Also, this site has a speaker phase section "coming soon", so you can check up on this one too.
http://www.installer.com/tech/index.html

Try a search yourself and if you find something on it (or just a good site in general) post it hear for the rest of us (but you might want to start another thread, this one's long enough already). ;)

Hope these help

-tkr
 
I gave it a quick test and it sounds pretty good, micing my deluxe reverb with a Beta 52. I didn't put the amp up on a chair, but I did lean in back against the couch so it pointed upward at an angle. I stuck the mic right on the grill cloth pointed at the center of the speaker. Usually I use a 57 over at the edge of the speaker. It came out real good, especially on rhtyhm chords and on the bass strings (no surprise), but I played some solo notes in the high range and it sounds good on that too, even though it does not quite have the bite that I get from the 57. I guess it just shows there is more than one way to skin a cat. Perhaps this would be a good way to record a rhythm track, and then go back and use a 57 to record a lead guitar track?
 
Bingo, ya got it!! Except you might wanna record the rhythm track, move to an unused track and record a second rhythm track, pan them hard left and right, then switch to the 57 and record the solo straight down the middle. That gets the rhythm tracks really beefy, but out of the way of the solo and vocals.
 
Hey Thanks.

Tekker,

Thanks for the definitions. That helped.

Harvey,

The rhythm track suggestion is very cool.
More tricks like there are very appreciated.
Thanks.
 
That stuff is best left to Ed's (Sonusman) wonderful thread over in "MIxing and Mastering". Maybe when we finally get to the end of this thread, I'll poke my head in there and see if there's any little tricks I can contribute (but Ed has covered most of it already and very well, too).
 
Your right.

Your right. I don't want to get you off track here.

BTW, I had already printed Ed's thread. Looks cool.

I just haven't had time to read it yet.
 
stereo

Harvey,
do you think you might find the time to elaborate more the different stereo micing techniques and mic choices? And for what applications would you use them?
 
h kuhn said:
Harvey,
do you think you might find the time to elaborate more the different stereo micing techniques and mic choices? And for what applications would you use them?
Sure, there are 3 basic stereo techniques, and several variations within each technique:

Co-Incidence
These include X/Y, Blumlien Pair, M-S, and Phased Arrays

Near Co-Incidence
These include Jecklin Disk, ORTF, Binaural, Crossed X/Y, and some others that I'm forgetting right now.

Wide Spaced.
Omnis (or cardioids), spaced far apart, with center fills sometimes.

Whoops, I'm gonna need pictures for this. Hang in there, it's gonna take me a while. I'll ty to get them drawn up by tomorrow.
 
Great thread! And: recording trumpet

I discovered this thread this morning, and I have literally spent the entire day devouring every post! This is truly an incredible resource. Much thanks to Harvey and the other contributors.

My home studio is built around my computer. Of course, all of this thread's content is applicable to recording on anything, but I am curious whether or not the majority of folks here are recording to computer, or what?

I record a lot of vocals and guitar (acoustic and electric), so I have learned a lot here I can use. However, my primary interest is recording trumpet, which I play professionally, so any more info on capturing that sound is welcomed. I play on various instruments, a lot of piccolo trumpet in particular, and I wonder if that instrument demands special equipment or tricks to be recorded well.

Thanks again. I look forward to future posts.

Trumpetman
 
Re: recording trumpet, here's a link to an off-site thread about this:

http://www.3daudioinc.com/wwwboard/messages/13729.shtml

As for what people record to, somebody did a survey on this site a few months ago, and at that time, it seemed predominantly to be computer recording. I get the feeling that more people are getting interested in some of the multitrack boxes though.

And now, back on thread...
 
Re: Great thread! And: recording trumpet

trumpetman said:
However, my primary interest is recording trumpet, which I play professionally, so any more info on capturing that sound is welcomed. I play on various instruments, a lot of piccolo trumpet in particular, and I wonder if that instrument demands special equipment or tricks to be recorded well.


I suppose you are playing classical music on the piccolo? try omnis and record in the best room you can afford. Try a pair of spaced omnis. If the room has a lot of reverb (church etc) get closer or use cardioids. Maybe give earthworks a try.
The Flügelhornman
 
Harvey... did you skip drum kit recording, or did I manage to miss it somehow?
I actually have been reading around this post for quite awhile now, because when I read the 1st few, I've not been in a "technical" frame of mind. Started last night, and I must say, this is good stuff.
Keep it coming... more on the weird stereo techniques. That blumlein disk thing... explain that.. and all the other stuff.
Do you know anything about phase-compensated stereo imaging and how it works?
Awesome work... what abour preamps and frequency carving? :)
Peace,
Paul
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Sure, there are 3 basic stereo techniques, and several variations within each technique:

Co-Incidence
These include X/Y, Blumlien Pair, M-S, and Phased Arrays

Near Co-Incidence
These include Jecklin Disk, ORTF, Binaural, Crossed X/Y, and some others that I'm forgetting right now.

Wide Spaced.
Omnis (or cardioids), spaced far apart, with center fills sometimes.

Whoops, I'm gonna need pictures for this. Hang in there, it's gonna take me a while. I'll ty to get them drawn up by tomorrow.
I know you've been pretty busy (with the C1 mic and everything), but I (and I'm sure a lot of others too) would really like to see your pics you were talking about. So when ever you have time we'd really appreciate it.

Thanx

-tkr
 
Originally posted by Tekker
I know you've been pretty busy (with the C1 mic and everything), but I (and I'm sure a lot of others too) would really like to see your pics you were talking about. So when ever you have time we'd really appreciate it.

Thanx

-tkr

Sorry about the delay. Since most of the pictures describing these different methods on the net are copyright protected, that means I hafta draw all of the pictures from scratch. It's turning out to be longer than I anticipated, due to some of the other threads taking some of my time (and every so often, I actually do some "real" work in the studio). :)

I'll get to it as soon as I can, and thanks to everybody for their patience. And I will discuss drum miking in detail.
 
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