Hitler Youth

[miroslav]

I am making assumptions, just like you're assuming they're wise beyond their years. I'm making my assumption because in the 10 years I've lived in this neighborhood through these very tumultuous political times we live in, this is the very first time I've ever seen local kids going door to door for politics.

....


I can't help but feel you'd agree with me if these kids were lefties.

Nope....I never assumed or said that they were "wise beyond their years"....you're just making that assumption too.

All I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong or unusual with teenagers having a little brains and/or using them or at least attempting to, and taking some real-world interest in things that shape their future.

Your take on that is that they are just "Hitler Youth" because they show motivation and interest.

And....I already said it doesn't matter what sided of the political fence they are on....it's better to have some real knowledge about the world around you, than to be indifferent, and worse still, to then go vote based on complete ignorance.

YMMV.....

 

[Greg_L]

Since you're extra slow today...."Hitler Youth" was obviously a joke in regards to young people pretending to be republicans, which is inherently ass backwards, or that they were being indoctrinated to the cause. Obviously, they were not actually Hitler Youth, nor do I really think they are Hitler Youth.

I do agree that there is nothing wrong with young people trying to use their minds. Maybe not in the futile and heavily flawed arena of american politics, but in real world situations like economics and science, sure. I don't think that was the case here. They were coached. They were on assignment. That much was plainly obvious. I don't like it, I never will like it. I don't appreciate adult figures in leadership trying to create little robots, and that's what I felt this was.

 

[ido1957]

Most people vote for the candidate that promises them something they want. Not because of indifference. Indifference would mean no voting because they don't care.

 

[miroslav]

...Hitler Youth" was obviously a joke......

No...I got your meaning from the git-go....though not sure how funny it was.
I know you didn't mean actual *Hitler* youth...but rather that they were just "brainwashed/indoctrinated" by someone.

I'm saying....kids with a little brains, motivation and interest about the world around them doesn't = brainwashed/indoctrinated.
I would rather see that than total indifference.

 

[Greg_L]

Most people vote for the candidate that promises them something they want. Not because of indifference. Indifference would mean no voting because they don't care.

Exactly. Indifferent people DO NOT VOTE! They don't bother. What's so bad about that? I'm truly indifferent. I've never voted in my life, and never will because it's a sham. Who am I hurting by not voting?

 

[Greg_L]

No...I got your meaning from the git-go....though not sure how funny it was.
I know you didn't mean actual *Hitler* youth...but rather that they were just "brainwashed/indoctrinated" by someone.

And I feel they were, or are being led around by someone. Not literally brainwashed, but they're young, dumb, and impressionable and it would be very easy for an adult they trust in their life to plow his own agenda into their heads. And since it's a republican agenda in this case, you're very okay with that.

I'm saying....kids with a little brains, motivation and interest about the world around them doesn't = brainwashed/indoctrinated.
I would rather see that than total indifference.

Yes, as you keep saying, but you weren't here on my porch with me talking to these specific kids, so you really have no idea what you're talking about in this specific case.

 

[miroslav]

Well...they couldn't have been any worse the the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to sell their views....or the phone calls from either party during election time.

If they were a little naive or idealistic for their age....that don't make them "brainwashed/indoctrinated"...aka "Hitler Youth".

AFA "indifference"....it seems harmless enough when you actually can make that choice.
Now...if you lived in a world where suddenly someone said you no longer had any rights/choices, and your voice was not to be heard.....then I'm sure you would not feel so "indifferent".

There lies the rub....in order to have the rights you need to exercise them. When you lose them, being "indifferent" is kinda moot....ain't it?

 

[Greg_L]

Well...they couldn't have been any worse the the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to sell their views....or the phone calls from either party during election time.

No, they weren't worse than that. I'm a savage beast to those people, but I felt bad for these kids, so I was friendly, polite, and gave them all the time they needed.

If they were a little naive or idealistic for their age....that don't make them "brainwashed/indoctrinated"...aka "Hitler Youth".

It does if there's someone pulling their strings, and I very strongly believe that there was.

AFA "indifference"....it seems harmless enough when you actually can make that choice.
Now...if you lived in a world where suddenly someone said you no longer had any rights/choices, and your voice was not to be heard.....then I'm sure you would not feel so "indifferent".

Creating a fantasy to support your points doesn't really fly with me. I'm the way I am because I can be. No one is taking that away from me. And if they do, we're all in the same boat, so I still don't see what the problem is. I don't care, you do, and neither of us can do shit about it, so who's the real winner or loser in your scenario? I might not have any faith in our system, but I'm not a sky-is-falling-doomsdayer either. Being indifferent is absolutely harmless. And if there is a harm, who is it harming? At worst, in your worst case scenario, I'm potentially harming myself. Since I'm comfortable with that decision, you should be too. In our real world, me not giving a fuck doesn't affect anyone, so what's the big deal? I happily give people like you that care about this stupid shit free reign to do whatever you want. Pull those levers! Rejoice in the illusion that you're making a difference. I will not stand in your way.

There lies the rub....in order to have the rights you need to exercise them. When you lose them, being "indifferent" is kinda moot....ain't it?

I'm sorry, but this is just stupid. I have the right to get get wasted at a bar. Should I exercise that right? I should, right? It's my right! I have the right to free speech and thought, but you're telling me I'm doing it wrong? Lol. You don't see the blatant contradiction in what you're saying? Being a free american doesn't mean that I have to use my rights or have them taken away. My rights are there if I want to exercise them. If not, they'll still be there, sitting collecting dust. Being a free american means that I have the right to do whatever the fuck I want within the confines of our law. The real rub lies between our rights and our laws. I have the right to drink heavily at a bar as an over 21 yr old adult. But it's against the law for me to drive my ass home afterwards. It's technically against the law for me to even stumble my ass home on foot. For me to exercise my drinking right and still be within the law, I need to call a cab or use public transportation, or catch a ride. Nowhere is there a law that says I must vote, or else! Is this North Korea? Were you yourself a Hitler Youth or something? I don't feel it's my civic duty to participate in a broken political popularity contest won by the biggest campaign budget. I actually feel that I'm making a better statement by steadfastly refusing to participate in our broken dog and pony show.

 

[XploZiveToyz]

Well...they couldn't have been any worse the the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to sell their views....or the phone calls from either party during election time.

If they were a little naive or idealistic for their age....that don't make them "brainwashed/indoctrinated"...aka "Hitler Youth".

AFA "indifference"....it seems harmless enough when you actually can make that choice.
Now...if you lived in a world where suddenly someone said you no longer had any rights/choices, and your voice was not to be heard.....then I'm sure you would not feel so "indifferent".

There lies the rub....in order to have the rights you need to exercise them. When you lose them, being "indifferent" is kinda moot....ain't it?

The point I believe Greg is trying to make is that there is an illusion of choice. When we are given two assholes and told to pick the one which stinks the least, that's not much of a choice. It's really no choice. And since the Supreme Court has ruled that it is now legal for corporations to donate as much as they want to candidates, it is now even more of a sham! I practice educated indifference. Your vote does not count! Remember the Gore/Bush clusterfuck?

 

[Greg_L]

In the event that this gets moved to the cave, I will not be posting in it anymore. So if you wanna direct something at me, save it for later, shove it up your ass, or just pm it to me.

 

[Greg_L]

The point I believe Greg is trying to make is that there is an illusion of choice. When we are given two assholes and told to pick the one which stinks the least, that's not much of a choice. It's really no choice. And since the Supreme Court has ruled that it is now legal for corporations to donate as much as they want to candidates, it is now even more of a sham! I practice educated indifference. Your vote does not count! Remember the Gore/Bush clusterfuck?

What's really cute are all the little fringe "choices" we have in a sad attempt to hide the fact that there really are only two candidates that can "win".

Here's your choices: You can have fish, or you can have chicken. If you want steak, pork, vegetables, or ice cream, tough fucking luck. They're on the menu, but you'll never, ever get it.

Or you can just throw the menu away, go home and eat whatever you want. I choose the go home and eat whatever I want option.

 

[XploZiveToyz]

What's really cute are all the little fringe "choices" we have in a sad attempt to hide the fact that there really are only two candidates that can "win".

Here's your choices: You can have fish, or you can have chicken. If you want steak, pork, vegetables, or ice cream, tough fucking luck. They're on the menu, but you'll never, ever get it.

Or you can just throw the menu away, go home and eat whatever you want. I choose the go home and eat whatever I want option.

I remember when I was in the fifth grade I wanted to go to law school, then put in a few years as an attorney, and then use that as a stepping stone into politics. However I was naive enough to think that I would be able to actually help people. Then I read The Biography of Huey P. Long, by T. Harry Williams. After reading the book and recognizing the fact, that by the time anyone attains a powerful position, they've given away all their power to attain the position. I said to myself,"Fuck this! I'll be a rock star instead!" LOL!

 

[Chili]

I don't see this thread being about politics, but rather about parenting skills, or lack of. Keep it on the civil side of the debate and it doesn't go to the cave. At least as far as I'm concerned.

The kind of Hitler Youth brainwashing Greg is talking about doesn't stop at the parent/child interface. My kid is getting it from his friends at school who get it from their parents. Sometimes he comes home waving the red banner and spouting pro-republican verbage like he knows what he believes in. It's obvious he is only regurgitating what he heard in school; just like a funny line in a movie which the kids repeat for a few weeks. I ask him a simple question to fortify his statements and the poor guy doesn't understand enough of what he is saying to give a thoughtful reply.

eh, kids... what can you do? Pumping their heads full of crap and sending them door to door probably isn't the first thing to come to mind.

Let them come to their own conclusions based on the observations they make (including what their parents say/choose) and decision based on their own experiences, rationale, and logic. They will develop their agenda and vote their conscience, not dad's.

 

[Greg_L]

I don't see this thread being about politics, but rather about parenting skills, or lack of. Keep it on the civil side of the debate and it doesn't go to the cave. At least as far as I'm concerned.

The kind of Hitler Youth brainwashing Greg is talking about doesn't stop at the parent/child interface. My kid is getting it from his friends at school who get it from their parents. Sometimes he comes home waving the red banner and spouting pro-republican verbage like he knows what he believes in. It's obvious he is only regurgitating what he heard in school; just like a funny line in a movie which the kids repeat for a few weeks. I ask him a simple question to fortify his statements and the poor guy doesn't understand enough of what he is saying to give a thoughtful reply.

eh, kids... what can you do? Pumping their heads full of crap and sending them door to door probably isn't the first thing to come to mind.

Let them come to their own conclusions based on the observations they make (including what their parents say/choose) and decision based on their own experiences, rationale, and logic. They will develop their agenda and vote their conscience, not dad's.

Yes, this x 100000000.

These aren't bad kids. This was bad leadership.

I don't dump my disgust for american politics on my chilluns. No one led me to think that way. My dad is very engaged in politics. He never tried to lead me in any political direction. I certainly don't want my kids going around telling everyone that "american politics is sham!" just because I said so. Maybe one day they'll feel the same way I do. Maybe one of them will vote democrat, one will vote republican. Maybe one of them will actually run for some type of political position. Whatever they do or think is fine with me as long as they believe in what they're doing and come to their own conclusions without being influenced by anyone else. All I do is try to keep them healthy, alive, and making good decisions on things that actually matter.

 

[Telegram Sam]

The point I believe Greg is trying to make is that there is an illusion of choice. When we are given two assholes and told to pick the one which stinks the least, that's not much of a choice. It's really no choice. And since the Supreme Court has ruled that it is now legal for corporations to donate as much as they want to candidates, it is now even more of a sham! I practice educated indifference. Your vote does not count! Remember the Gore/Bush clusterfuck?

Not even the illusion of choice, it is more the illusion of effect; the idea that taking the time to go into the voting booth and push the buttons is going to have any effect doesn't even rise to the level of illusion, in my mind.

I don't answer my door to strangers, anyway.

 

[rayc]

Greg,
There's no way I'd send kids out doing that stuff.
1st I'd have to do a risk assessment,
2nd arrange supervision, ensure the supervisor passed all the necessary police checks,
3rd ensure that what they are doing isn't contrary to state or federal govt policy, dictum or agenda, (we're encouraged told by our fed govt. to dob in any fed employees who bag the govt, govt pollies or govt plans) and the state govt. has a code of conduct that prevents govt employees from speaking out about the same stuff except where they are whistle blowers who go directly to the anti-corruption authority) though I am, personally exempt from some aspect as I'm a union rep.
4th as it exposes them to unbalanced, unmediated responses which may be negative or offensive it couldn't go ahead as it would clear in the risk assessment that many of these things cannot be prevented, tempered or bypassed.
5th we aren't (& I agree with this) permitted to make a political statement one way or the other to our students even if they ask as we are in a position that may have significant influence over the kids.
6th - you get the picture.
Outside of my working life I wouldn't do it because of number 4 and the knowledge that the kid needs to have an understanding of their position based on reality before expounding that to others, (some pollies lack this too) and some degree of credibility as well.Plus it's just wrong.

We have a student council (1st grade & up) but it's about engagement with the school, the students and occasional charity collections as well as an exercise in civics not politics.

In Australia voting is mandatory & being so the vote does count, is counted and sometimes miscounted. Indifference can be expressed by "donkey" (no not as in elephant or ass), informal voting which is, in itself subject to a count and analysis or by paying the fine.
We get, as a nation, the idiots we vote for and collectively share the blame/shame of that 3 year term.
In our Senate, however, microparty preference deals deliver senators who garner less that 1% primary vote in their state/constituancyand are dedicated to single issues such as, (in the new senate starting in June), sport or hunting - and they stay for SIX years pushing their narrow barrow and exercising influence well beyond their abilities, understanding or control (& control is what some svengali seems to have over this rorting/fenangling/manipulation).

Let's face it the Hitler Youth was about separating potential officers from potential cannon fodder in the midst of pre boot camp training whilst fostering the dob in book reader ethos.

George Orwell was scarily accurate wasn't he?

P.S. most of the worst things said in the playground are simple, unknowing regurgitation of what is said at home & how it is said.

 

[miroslav]

Being a free american means that I have the right to do whatever the fuck I want within the confines of our law.

If you backtrack USA history, you'll see that "indifference" is NOT what got you your freedom that you now so happily enjoy. That's really the point.

The point I believe Greg is trying to make is that there is an illusion of choice.

Mmmmmm....maybe now as the thread splinters off into side discussions....but initially, his main point was that the two kids at his door were obviously brainwashed by their parents...and therefore "Hitler Youth".
Granted, only he knows how the encounter actually went....but I just don't see that teens talking politics is that odd these days.
I bet you could walk into any sophomore/junior high-school history and/or economics class, and politics along with other world issues are discussed quite a bit and in depth....which was my point.
IOW....kids aren't just getting their info and life direction from their parents. I mean...this ain't the '50s.

Also....over-protecting the kids is just another form of indoctrination. It shelters them from realities that they will find out anyway, and maybe the hard way....instead of at least being involved in discussions and activities that let them form real opinions rather than just remaining indifferent and/or hidden from that.
I mean....we are talking about kids in their mid-teens....not kids in grammar school.
At 16...they will be able to vote in two years. I think it's good to spend some time ahead of that, learning about politics and being involved in what goes on in the country and the world.
It's too easy to simply not get involved, and figure that someone else will....but then, they can't ever complain about stuff that's going on in government.

 

[Mick Doobie]

Whether we recognize and/or like it, or not, kids are constantly being indoctrinated, politically, socially, etc.-->in schools, pop culture, movies, television, even cartoons. Some of it is subtle, some not so subtle. The schools have essentially a captive audience for indoctrination. Damned if I want the most influential person in my child's life on political and social issues to be some birdbrain teacher based on her/his own agenda and life experience. I see nothing wrong with a parent expressing and instilling political and social views/values in their kids. In fact, it is a responsibility. The kid will at some point become an adult and will be free to decide for him or herself. Whether that adult will be capable of making an informed decision will in part depend on being exposed to information, viewpoints. If you don't feel your own guidance is of benefit to your own child, wow.

Sending the kid door to door is a different matter.

 

[XploZiveToyz]

I'll tell you the children I feel really sorry for: the ones that belong to some of the religious groups like that Baptist church that holds up signs at soldiers funerals saying things like God Hates Fags.​ Those poor children!

 

[kcearl]

The right should be crushed under the jackboot of freedom