From USB Condensor Mic to Non-USB "Phantom and the like".

[Zerowalker]

ecc83, I see.

Not exactly what i had in mind in the first place, but can grasp it's usage.

Hmm...

Why i am actually wanting to use my SoundCard, and not replace it is because i actually want to be able to do certain stuff in one system, which i think an AI will have problem with, though i am probably wrong.

1: I want to be able to play music, games, and all that normal PC usage things.
2: I want to be able to Record from certain Devices (for example recording from VCR or other Devices, and want to have good conversion.), though i get that most likely MB cards can handle that pretty well.
3: Recording my voice or whatever from a good Mic.

And as an AI use XLR and fancy stuff, i kinda feel like 1 and 2 will be broken.

Bobbsy,

Okay that sucked.
I have actually talked a bit with Creative, sadly that was pretty much about Stereo Direct and ASIO, and the only information of use there would be that they said "Stereo Direct bypasses SoundCard processing".

Is there any tests i can do see if this issue persist?

Even though i actually always use 48khz, i hate conversion being done without my knowledge.

The poor sound must be coming from your soundcard or monitors. I'm not hearing anything of a "noise filtered" sound (whatever that may be) from the clip I posted.

It must be the clip.

Not sure how to explain it. hmm. Or rather i don't even know what mic is used, but i guess it's some fancy stuff?
The recording sounds pretty much like my webcam mic with it's "RealSound" or whatever it's called, activated.
Which basically "removes unwanted noise", and makes it sounds, fuzzy, unrealistic as there is real noise, like that clip.

 

[mjbphotos]

You can do 1 & 2 with a half-decent USB audio interface. You can also hook up your system so you use your SB card for those things, and the AI for audio work.

 

[Zerowalker]

Wouldn't it then be better to just have one external soundcard that can do it all?
If i then would say skip the SB card totally.

Or are 2 devices needed (Mixer & Soundcard?)

 

[ecc83]

About the only thing you can't do with an external AI is route an internal signal, radio say, to an input to record.

However, even this might be possible with a Focusrite 8i6 or similar with the Mix Control software?

 

[Zerowalker]

About the only thing you can't do with an external AI is route an internal signal, radio say, to an input to record.

Not sure what you mean.

Are you saying i can't, do something like.

Device that outputs audio to RCA/3.5mm -> AI (like Soundcard Line In) -> record to PC?

I've got a mixed system between the onboard sound in my computer and an external Tascam USB interface. Simply a matter of selecting the device you want to use for the software you want to associate with it. My previous PC had the ability to use onboard integrated sound, a PCI soundcard, and the Tascam USB as well which gave me a bunch of options to get audio in, out, and within.

Well i don't really want to have 3 options, i want 1 device to handle it all, as my tasks aren't that "hard"

But confused, shouldn't an AI with soundcard work?

I mean, PC get's connected to the AI, the AI acts as a soundcard or whatever and will let the PC input and output with it.

The AI can accept, let's say RCA input/output as well as a Mic.

Is that possible?

Wouldn't that then allow all said options?

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MTrackPlus.html ?

I am probably confusing things here though;S

 

[Zerowalker]

Ah, okay.

But what about the thing i linked, is that something of use?
Doesn't that act as a Soundcard, and i get all the inputs and outputs etc?

 

[Bobbsy]

As I type this I'm on a laptop with a very cheap M Audio M Track interface. I use it for location recording but also for general internet surfing, watching Youtube, playing stupid games when I get a chance, Skype calls (at far greater quality than the built in computer mic) and basically everything on your 1 and 2 list. the only thing it doesn't do is 5.1 playback but I'd never use that anyway.

However, when recording properly on good mics, I get nice quiet audio from a condenser mic, enough gain for a dynamic mic, effect mixing for for the headphone monitor mix and decently low latency with ASIO drivers.

I'm not trying to sell the M Track (though I'm pleasantly pleased with it's performance compared to some rather more expensive stuff I use to multitrack), just show that a decent interface isn't a limiting as you think.

 

[Zerowalker]

I see, hmm.

But can i pretty much Assume that an AI would be a SoundCard in this cases?

Cause, as all you seem keen to remove my SoundBlaster (of course for good reasons;P), i have to realistically look at my options.
And an AI as suggested all the time seems to be the way to go.

But a bit confused here, though, as some use in Internalle with XLR input etc, and other Externally and connect via USB.

So, what's going on there?
I mean, i am not really a USB fan at all, for me it just feels cheap compared to a direct link like PCI-E, close to hardware etc.

However, i also know that inside your PC is A Lot of interference, and i can personally here some in cases at audible levels (rare and controlled cases pretty much, but still. Damn graphic card -_-).

Oh and also, 5.1 isn't exactly something i care about either, a bonus to have, but nothing more.

What i want is, A great sound experience, a working soundcard (gaming and all that stuff), i want to be able to use a Mic (phantom or whatever, a good mic),
And also i want to be able to record. Of course the Mic etc, but also in Stereo for Devices like, VCR, but well all devices should act the same. Line In level signal.

Digital Input is something i must have as well, but i guess that's a bit more rare, so i guess i could get another option for that, as well Digital Input doesn't matter with quality compared to Analogue.

Thanks, really great help i get here

 

[ecc83]

Now that Bobbsy has pointed out the sampling shenannegins of the SB card I am going to revise my advice!

Get rid! I still stick to my point that a decent mixer and GOOD PCI soundcard can give excellent results but not. it seems, in this case.

Next of course comes choice of external AI*? You have mentioned the connection of other sources so an input count over the basic two would be useful? My top reccy (as many here will know ad n!) is the Native Instruments KA6 which also has S/PDIF which was a requirement?

My point about internal "recording" is solved by using the system sound in the PC. I cannot see that SS is going to be any worse than the Youtube ***t coming in! (might be a bit worse than our very own HD Radio 3?) . My KA6 is quite happy to live along with the MOBO soundcard in my HP laptop. I just select whichever I need at the time in Win7.

Lastly, you thought USB was "cheap" ? This ain't!.....

News - Prism Sound add Titan to their audio interface range

Forgot! Zerowalker. You seem to be pretty PC cute? So, try uninstalling the SB card with Revouninstaller on its advanced setting. Just see how much crap Creative(not!) have dumped into your Registry!

Dave.

 

[Zerowalker]

Next of course comes choice of external AI*? You have mentioned the connection of other sources so an input count over the basic two would be useful? My top reccy (as many here will know ad n!) is the Native Instruments KA6 which also has S/PDIF which was a requirement?

Looked at it. Should have been more specific and said Optical.
But i think Optical and Coaxial are interchangeable with an adapter?
I really want to know about the latency though, as i would use those for Input -> Playback in most cases, as well as recording them if i want to.

Other than that, how does inputting from RCA work. RCA -> TRS as i found is lossless, except that TRS is more robust and offers more "handling", but it shouldn't affect quality in anyway if i want to input RCA and have to change it to TRS?

And isn't USB powered a bad thing?
I searched on it, and it seems that self-powered is the way to go as USB powered could bring interference from the PC. Though not sure if that's just rare cases or something?

Lastly, you thought USB was "cheap" ? This ain't!.....

Pretty much meant "cheap" as in, low-quality feeling;P

My KA6 is quite happy to live along with the MOBO soundcard in my HP laptop. I just select whichever I need at the time in Win7.

Why do you use the onboard if you got the external one?

Forgot! Zerowalker. You seem to be pretty PC cute? So, try uninstalling the SB card with Revouninstaller on its advanced setting. Just see how much crap Creative(not!) have dumped into your Registry!

Have uninstalled it at times and cleaned registry, not sure it dumps to much random stuff.
But it does install some, "Encoder Audio Dolby thing stuff", which i dislike.

And i can't really say that i love there Update tool, it seems like a marketing software that makes you think random software you can install is an update of some kind,
quite disturbing if you aren't that good with PC software, i could easily see how people would install stuff all over the place.

 

[ecc83]

Optical digital I/O is now rare on interfaces except where it is part of an ADAT system.
As you say, converters are available and cheap, about $10 a pop each way? I used a pair to go up and down from my M-A soundcard to a Sony Minidisc recorder, no worries.

USB cheap and fragile? No more so than Fussywire I would say I have not held a Thunderfart connector so far but I bet none of them would survive my size twelves? RJ45 does most of the time but then it only takes me under 5 mins to swap a jack plug!

Don't get your worry about RCA analogue cables and TRS? The latter can be balanced but in a closely connected home system, balancing ('cept mic) really does not matter. So long as connectors are firm and clean, nay bother.

The USB power coming from any PC I have ever used was way cleaner than many of the SMPS wall rats I have load/noise tested! (FCS stop sweating all this stuff! You'll have a seizure!) And, as a technician I am also of the persuasion that it is the SINK that should clean the power, not the source. (tho' there are of course limits!)

Why use the OBS in my laptop if I have a (bloody good!) AI? Because I rarely use sound from the laptop, bit of Radi4 maybe and it is of course portable! I use the KA6 (or F'rite 8i6 ) rarely these days...Mostly to do tests for yous guys!

You are getting unwanted crap being slid in with updates??? Outrageous!
Seriously Zero, where you been????!! You can hardly trust anything nowadays NOT to give you a bloody toolbar or PC speederupper!

I try to use ninite.com where I can.

Dave.

 

[Zerowalker]

Optical digital I/O is now rare on interfaces except where it is part of an ADAT system.
As you say, converters are available and cheap, about $10 a pop each way? I used a pair to go up and down from my M-A soundcard to a Sony Minidisc recorder, no worries.

Any idea about the latency, does it add milliseconds or microseconds when converting (hoping the latter;P).

Don't get your worry about RCA analogue cables and TRS? The latter can be balanced but in a closely connected home system, balancing ('cept mic) really does not matter. So long as connectors are firm and clean, nay bother.

Right, so unbalance to balanced etc is nothing to care about except for long distances and other non-home cases?

The USB power coming from any PC I have ever used was way cleaner than many of the SMPS wall rats I have load/noise tested! (FCS stop sweating all this stuff! You'll have a seizure!) And, as a technician I am also of the persuasion that it is the SINK that should clean the power, not the source. (tho' there are of course limits!)

That's good to hear

Why use the OBS in my laptop if I have a (bloody good!) AI? Because I rarely use sound from the laptop, bit of Radi4 maybe and it is of course portable! I use the KA6 (or F'rite 8i6 ) rarely these days...Mostly to do tests for yous guys!

Wait, what do you use then, if KA6 isn't good enough?
I mean does it's portability limit it? (Except that it may not have 100 ports etc)?

You are getting unwanted crap being slid in with updates??? Outrageous!
Seriously Zero, where you been????!! You can hardly trust anything nowadays NOT to give you a bloody toolbar or PC speederupper!

Kinda, sounds a bit more outrageous than it is, as it's not automatic, or at least i never really use it, but when you do the software comes up as "Recommened" and updated as "Crucial".
But i don't really get the idea of an updater like that showing software, and recommended sounds like something you really want to have (which i don't), so not the most optimal way i would put it.

I try to use ninite.com where I can.

Never heard of, interesting..

Thanks

 

[ecc83]

"Wait, what do you use then, if KA6 isn't good enough?
I mean does it's portability limit it? (Except that it may not have 100 ports etc)?"

No, the KA6* is way good enough but the laptop sits in my living room and just does "computer" stuff, internet etc. I hardly ever need sound on it and if I DO want sound I want HQ from my Tannoy monitors in the "studio" bedroom. The last time (except for tests) that the HP i3 married up with the KA6 for serious recording was to capture a jam night at a Labour club in town that my son plays at. He is now in France so I have no musicians about to record!
I said I might use the lappy for radio? In which case I would probably record the programme in the way I mentioned earlier and save as a 16bit.wav. That would then either be dumped on a stick or put on my NAS drive and auditioned later on the big computer and the Tannoys.

Latency with ANY interface will be in mSecs, including even the best PCI. The KA6 has the lowest latency of any AI sub £200 that I am aware of. Totally undetectable in ordinary use.

*Bought primarily to get 4 tracks to and from a Teac A3440 OR machine for Son. But since he has buggered off to La Belle France I have not wired it all up so far.

Dave.

 

[Zerowalker]

Ah okay.

But with KA6 you can do all this stuff.
Record Mic, Record Stereo input Line In, Monitor untouched (if wanted), Listen to it as a normal SoundCard (stereo output jacket)?

Also as i have a headphone amp, does that matter for these kind of AI. I am hoping they don't amp the output signal.

Latency with ANY interface will be in mSecs, including even the best PCI. The KA6 has the lowest latency of any AI sub £200 that I am aware of. Totally undetectable in ordinary use.

I meant Coaxial to Digital, which seems to be a bit random when i searched on it, depends on converter. Seems probably the easiest way would be to just input it directly to the PC without converter, and probably cheaper in the end as well for my case.

But the USB doesn't add any latency then compared to PCI?
For well normal listening, as well as ASIO as i guess that's supported?

Thanks

 

[ecc83]

"But the USB doesn't add any latency then compared to PCI?
For well normal listening, as well as ASIO as i guess that's supported?"

Depends on the PCI! My 2496 cards are getting on a bit and only go down to (a perfectly usable!) 64 samples. The KA6 WILL work at 32 samples but since there is virtually nothing I need to do that needs that speed I have both interfaces defaulted to 256 to keep CPU hit down.

The KA6 has a perfectly good headphone output. Like many AIs it won't blow your ears off but it is more than good enough for me an I's deef!

Dave.

 

[Zerowalker]

So you could go lower before?

But still, isn't like 196samples at 16bit 48khz like 5ms or something?
So yeah as long as it's below 10ms, perhaps just 15-20ms it's pretty much realtime as far as i know, as you can't really distinguish it fast enough.

The KA6 has a perfectly good headphone output. Like many AIs it won't blow your ears off but it is more than good enough for me an I's

Yeah but meant like, Amps can be used to clear the Ohm difference between high resistance headphones etc, don't know the details, but it prevents lower hertz from being distorted in those cases if i remember correctly.


But hmm, i kinda like the unit, though there are 2 things i noticed when looking at reviews.

1: is the volume, i would never use it as i have a headphone amp, so don't really like that. But not a deal breaker i guess as i should just put it on MAX to have it stay "lossless"?
2: There is no Gain control for the Line In, which i think can be pretty useful, as recording from VCR for example, tend to yield Very low audio, so you would need to increase through software. But then again, if it's recorded at 24bit, and the noise floor is at about 20bit (should be around here on quality circuits right?), that should be a problem so increasing afterwards should yield same results.

 

[ecc83]

So you could go lower before?

But still, isn't like 196samples at 16bit 48khz like 5ms or something?
So yeah as long as it's below 10ms, perhaps just 15-20ms it's pretty much realtime as far as i know, as you can't really distinguish it fast enough.



Yeah but meant like, Amps can be used to clear the Ohm difference between high resistance headphones etc, don't know the details, but it prevents lower hertz from being distorted in those cases if i remember correctly.


But hmm, i kinda like the unit, though there are 2 things i noticed when looking at reviews.

1: is the volume, i would never use it as i have a headphone amp, so don't really like that. But not a deal breaker i guess as i should just put it on MAX to have it stay "lossless"?
2: There is no Gain control for the Line In, which i think can be pretty useful, as recording from VCR for example, tend to yield Very low audio, so you would need to increase through software. But then again, if it's recorded at 24bit, and the noise floor is at about 20bit (should be around here on quality circuits right?), that should be a problem so increasing afterwards should yield same results.

If you have a high quality headphone amp by all means use that but I have no and have read of no criticism of the one in the KA6.

Geez! You are making me work! NI should put me on commish!

I had though that VCR feed was digital sound? If it is analogue I would guess (don't have a spec to hand!) it would be at least -10dBV? The 3/4 inputs on the KA need +12dBu for 0dBFS. That's 3.1volts so the video sound would come in at about -20dBFS. Due to the compressed, crappy, noisy nature of much video I suspect even 16bits would serve!...But! If it was really a problem just patch round to the front line ins where the sensitivity is much higher at just -4dBu for full modulation.

What is the bother about latency? I bet the KA beats the S(of a) B hands down. In any case, latency is only important if you are playing a keyboard into a softsynth or a guitar say, into a DAW and want to get realtime effects.

Just found spec for a SCART connector. 0.5V rms that's -6dBV...Loadsalevel!

Dave.

 

[Zerowalker]

If you have a high quality headphone amp by all means use that but I have no and have read of no criticism of the one in the KA6.

Wait so the KA6 actually has a built int?
It's not just, "IO" with a Volume meter?

Geez! You are making me work! NI should put me on commish!

That means i am doing something right here;P!

I had though that VCR feed was digital sound?

You sure you aren't confusing it with something else?
VCR is as Analogue as it will come.


Can't say anything about the DB level, i got a VCR and can test it, but as i have no tools to test it's level it's meaningless i guess.

Due to the compressed, crappy, noisy nature of much video I suspect even 16bits would serve!

Guess you mean stuff like "Loudness War?", but well VCR output pretty crisp clean audio, and it was pretty much before that came along, at least in the way it is now.
However the Noise Floor of a VCR, at least with HiFi track, is somewhere like 16bit i think, think it's a bit less perhaps, but it's Clear when it recorded as it should.

If it was really a problem just patch round to the front line ins where the sensitivity is much higher at just -4dBu for full modulation.

Isn't that Mono, or perhaps you mean use Both and Match the Gain controllers?

What is the bother about latency? I bet the KA beats the S(of a) B hands down. In any case, latency is only important if you are playing a keyboard into a softsynth or a guitar say, into a DAW and want to get realtime effects.

Not a bother, just want to rule out possible "defects". As i have never ever used a USB soundcard of any sort, and as i said before, USB feels cheap, so just want to make sure!

 

[ecc83]

Komplete : Audio Interfaces : Komplete Audio 6 : Downloads | Products

VCR sound is analogue? Well yes but many of them are now DVD dupers as well and have a Toslink output. In any case I think halve a volt seems about right.

As for VHS sound being crap? Well, hi-fi sound CAN be excellent but I was going by the compressed stuff we get on telly. If you have any PRE HF sound recordings they will be worse quality than a pretty indifferent cassette machine!

Wish you were in UK, I would loan you my KA for a month..THEN you would see the light!

Dave.

 

[Zerowalker]

VCR sound is analogue? Well yes but many of them are now DVD dupers as well and have a Toslink output. In any case I think halve a volt seems about right.

No idea what you mean there.

VCR for me is, VCR + VHS = Analogue Audio/Video through RCA:S

As for VHS sound being crap? Well, hi-fi sound CAN be excellent but I was going by the compressed stuff we get on telly. If you have any PRE HF sound recordings they will be worse quality than a pretty indifferent cassette machine!

Well ignoring TV recordings, and focusing on real Tapes, especially old ones before DVD.
Those have excellent quality in terms of Audio.

And yeah before the HiFi, it wasn't that well, no idea where it is, but i am guessing around 10-12bit in terms of noise floor. But well could be worse;P

Wish you were in UK, I would loan you my KA for a month..THEN you would see the light!

Sadly Sweden is the name of the game here

But have you done any Rightmark tests on the KA?
Cause i would like to compare it to my SoundCard.
As i searched on it, and i read one being unsatisfied with the high noise floor at around -75db, which is much higher than i would expect, 90-105db is where they should be in good conditions as far as i know.