Best Recording Levels

Glen,

Are you a mastering engineer then ?
No no no! I didn't have a chance to reply to pipe's comment.

While I've been known to master my own stuff and have done some mastering/remastering for others on a B level, I would not call myself a mastering engineer. I'm equipped for, and do most of my work in, mixing and editing.

If you want to send stuff out for mastering, pick a real mastering engineer like Massive or Masteringhouse, not some Sears ME.

G.
 
So hopefully, that limiter would only be acting on that 1 rogue transient.
Not if it's across the 2-buss... Find out what's causing it and put the limiter there.
Strapping a limiter across the mix buss may only by it's settings affect a rogue transient, but it's still sending the entire mix through the limiter, lengthing the signal chain and and moving the mix just that much further from the original truth.

Granted, in digital it may not make as much of a difference as in analog, but it's still there. Not to mention that using an entire limiter just to stunt a single transient or two is rather like using ariel napalm to remove a few weeds from the backyard; it's kind of overkill (even if it does smell good in the morning.)

I'm with John in that it's better to attack those in the tracks than on the mix buss. Where I'd personally ddiffer with all respect, though, is that I still would not use a limiter just for a couple of rouge waves, even on the source tracks. There are a few reasons I say this. First is the napalm on dandilions effect is still there. But more important, is that a limiter may be inappropriate in a case likeyou say where you say you can't find the cause.

Often times, one or two rogue transients will pop up on the mix buss when there is no apparent source cause for them on any one individual track. What is often the case is that there are two or three (or maybe more) perfectly innocous "peaks" on two or three (or more) individual tracks whose attacks just so happen to line up so perfectly on the timeline, have complimentary harmonic content, etc. so that when they are summed, they create a larger-than-average transient on the mix buss. The individual peaks may not even rise above the average peak level on the individual tracks; it's just the coincidence of their summingthat causes the rogue peaks.

In such cases, trying to limit the individual tracks would not work well, because you'd have to limit more than just one peak, you'd be limiting the average peak level for the entire track, which may not be what you want sonically. Instead I'd just go in on two of the most obvious of the source tracks and manually knock down that one mini-peak on each track by a couple of dB. The end effect will be inaudible on the track level, and on the mix buss, your rogue peak will be tamed by several dB just as if it were limited, but without the extra baggage.

G.
 
Most times I think it is the "complimentary harmonic " build up problem you mentioned.

It's not that any one track is too loud, but 2 or more tracks at the same time at the same frequency build a peak, and go over.

In this case, should I use a frequency analyzer, set the song to loop at exactly where is peaks, identify the frequency going over (by looking at the analyzer) and make an eq cut ?

I've handled the problem this way before but wasn't sure if it was a common practice, or if this could cause problems elsewhere.
 
Most times I think it is the "complimentary harmonic " build up problem you mentioned.

It's not that any one track is too loud, but 2 or more tracks at the same time at the same frequency build a peak, and go over.

In this case, should I use a frequency analyzer, set the song to loop at exactly where is peaks, identify the frequency going over (by looking at the analyzer) and make an eq cut ?

I've handled the problem this way before but wasn't sure if it was a common practice, or if this could cause problems elsewhere.

The thing is, if you're mixing at a decent level (somewhere around the -18 that keeps coming up), I can't see how something can shoot up and peak past zero, without that peak being so noticeable that it makes you jump out of your chair. I would think that whatever it is would obviously need to be re-tracked.
 
when i run a a meter to check for average rms i have 2 choices....sine wave and sqayere wave.....now adobes meter has square wave as default and i know a friend of mine says protools also used square wave......my question is are these the correct ones to use? cause there us a huge rms difference between the 2
 
Most times I think it is the "complimentary harmonic " build up problem you mentioned.

It's not that any one track is too loud, but 2 or more tracks at the same time at the same frequency build a peak, and go over.

In this case, should I use a frequency analyzer, set the song to loop at exactly where is peaks, identify the frequency going over (by looking at the analyzer) and make an eq cut ?

I've handled the problem this way before but wasn't sure if it was a common practice, or if this could cause problems elsewhere.

You can usually just listen as it peaks and get a pretty good idea of where all that energy is colliding. Solo the suspects, or mute the innocent till you confirm which tracks are causing the pile up, then decide who is gonna give way. The remedy may be a combination of a little Eq here, a little volume envelope or limiter there, till the tracks play nice with each other but no track is compromised. As Massive said, the 2 buss is not the place you want to fix things. If I put anything on the 2 buss, which I very rarely do, it's for effect, not for repair.
 
when i run a a meter to check for average rms i have 2 choices....sine wave and sqayere wave.....now adobes meter has square wave as default and i know a friend of mine says protools also used square wave......my question is are these the correct ones to use? cause there us a huge rms difference between the 2
If I remember correctly, there's a 3dB difference between the two, with the square being higher (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that).

This is another one of the many instances in this whole levels and gain structure subject where there is a "standard", but someone comes along and decides that anarchy is better. The common "standard" has always been to measure using the sine wave (most specifically, a 1kHz sine wave is used for standard calibration.) Square wave has always been there as an option, but it has not been very frequently used as an audio standard that I know of. That is, not until, for reasons as yet unexplained here, Pro Tools came along and decided to use the square wave setting as their default.

I'm open to other better ideas on this one, but until then, my thinking on it has been to use sine wave for calibrating the software metering to the converters and for determining standard RMS numbers for a mix, and to use square wave only if I want to calibrate my metering to an outside project using Pro Tools or other software with the square wave calibration set.
You can usually just listen as it peaks and get a pretty good idea of where all that energy is colliding. Solo the suspects, or mute the innocent till you confirm which tracks are causing the pile up, then decide who is gonna give way. The remedy may be a combination of a little Eq here, a little volume envelope or limiter there, till the tracks play nice with each other but no track is compromised. As Massive said, the 2 buss is not the place you want to fix things. If I put anything on the 2 buss, which I very rarely do, it's for effect, not for repair.
Bingo, +1 and all that. I tend to prefer volume editing over EQ, using EQ only if I can hear the need for an EQ change in the resulting mix, and only if the EQ change does not adversely affect the rest of the track or mix. But yeah, sometimes that is at least partially what it takes.

G.
 
If I put anything on the 2 buss, which I very rarely do, it's for effect, not for repair.


So if you put anything at all on the 2 bus, it would just be a touch of reverb, or something like that ?


I've been putting the PSP Vintage Warmer on the 2 bus sometimes too.... should I just be assigning that 2 individual tracks instead ?
 
Wow.... what a great link for this thread, thanks ikon !


lol -

quote "THIS BOX IS FULL!!!!!!!!!! There is a difference of less than 3 decibels between the loudest average part of this track and the loudest digital word that can be represented as sound. This is what we call a true sausage. This record is shockingly loud, but also just shocking."


Can you believe the difference in the 2 Stooges releases ?
 
So if you put anything at all on the 2 bus, it would just be a touch of reverb, or something like that ?


I've been putting the PSP Vintage Warmer on the 2 bus sometimes too.... should I just be assigning that 2 individual tracks instead ?

You know the old saying; rule one is that there are no rules. (Actually, there are, it's just that sometimes breaking them in a creative and knowledgeable manner turns out cool.) My own methodology is to save that kind of stuff for mastering, whether it's real mastering or self mastering. In either case I first output a mix file. That mix file stays untouched unless I go back to the mix and change stuff. Then, if I'm self mastering, after sufficient decoupling time from the mix session (days, not hours) I'll put on my mastering hat, pretend I've never heard the song before, and decide whether it's ready to master or whether I should call the idiot who mixed it and tell him to try again. :D If I still like the mix, but just want to sweeten it as a whole, then I work on copies of the mix file, preserving the original mix file. I may try a few different approaches, outputting a premaster file for each, to review later, saving each session. It may be only when I assemble the CD as a whole that I choose which of those goes into the burn file. But, you know, that's just me. the right methodology is the one that makes you do your best work.
 
I don;t know why this is - but I am amazed every time I do a mix down, and then listen to it. (Usually in media player).

It always has a different sound to it once mixed down and changed into 16-bit.

So, even though I thought I knew how a song sounded, after sitting in front on the individual 24-bit tracks for a few hours..... after mix down it's like..... wow, so that's how it will actually sound to the listener.

It's always at that point too that I say to myself..... Why did I mix the vocal so damn loud ? It wasn't that loud before mix down.
 
thanx glen =]

well heres a nice article i was reading with samples and stuff on this very subject

http://chicagomasteringservice.com/loudness.html
That is a very good article. I'd agree with its points almost completly. The only exceptions I'd make is that I'd come down a bit less diplomaticlly on the volume wars. As an ME, I'm sure he's trying to steer people away from volume without scaring away business, so I can kind of understand their more diplomatic stand.

As a mixing engineer who hates to hear perfectly good mixes totally crushed into harsh banality by the loudness wars, I have zero desire to be so diplomatic ;). For example, to call the pancaking of that Radiohead album "amazingly transparent" sounding is kind of like saying that they were suprised when they drank a glass of molton lava of just how "amazingly smooth" it's texture was. ;) :D

But all in all, a good article.

G.
 
I don;t know why this is - but I am amazed every time I do a mix down, and then listen to it. (Usually in media player).

It always has a different sound to it once mixed down and changed into 16-bit.

I don't think it's the conversion to 16 bits. The difference between 24 and 16 is almost inaudible. There has to be a problem in your monitoring or something.
 
T
As a mixing engineer who hates to hear perfectly good mixes totally crushed into harsh banality by the loudness wars, I have zero desire to be so diplomatic ;). .

Diplomatic? whats that mean? :)

My shit talking mouth has lost me all sorts of business, but it also attracts people who know exactly what they want.

I suspect you do the same thing I do. Keep a copy on hand of the original mix for "evidence" later so you can say "see??? I made a good album, the BAND ruined it"
 
I don't think it's the conversion to 16 bits. The difference between 24 and 16 is almost inaudible. There has to be a problem in your monitoring or something.


I hope not, and I don't think it's that.

I think it has more to do with everything's been rendered together, and now I'm listening to 1 wav file, in media player.... not 16-tracks in reaper.

You guys don't notice your stuff sounds a little different after mix down ?
 
I hope not, and I don't think it's that.

I think it has more to do with everything's been rendered together, and now I'm listening to 1 wav file, in media player.... not 16-tracks in reaper.

You guys don't notice your stuff sounds a little different after mix down ?

You are mixing down to stereo, right? That might be an obvious question, but sometimes we overlook obvious things. If you're rendering in mono, then it will sound different, and levels might change. But to stereo, there shouldn't be a difference.
 
You are mixing down to stereo, right? That might be an obvious question, but sometimes we overlook obvious things. If you're rendering in mono, then it will sound different, and levels might change. But to stereo, there shouldn't be a difference.


Yeah - down to stereo.

I don't add dither, because I don't understand it.
 
mattkw80 said:
Most times I think it is the "complimentary harmonic " build up problem you mentioned.
It's not that any one track is too loud, but 2 or more tracks at the same time at the same frequency build a peak, and go over.
The thing is, if you're mixing at a decent level (somewhere around the -18 that keeps coming up), I can't see how something can shoot up and peak past zero, without that peak being so noticeable that it makes you jump out of your chair. I would think that whatever it is would obviously need to be re-tracked.
The only hole in that argument is even with conservatively recorded tracks you reach a point where there are peaks you may want to loose bringing the mix up to it's final level.

As an alternate tack for tracking down the source of peaks and deciding whether to fix them at the track or mix level; Bounce the mix to a new track in the project. This mix track gives a visual record of the same peaks perfectly aligned to their source tracks. (Assign this track to a clean, zeroed' output bus so play-back and metering will be identical to your mix 'live playback. I like to use the mix tracks as my in-project collection of progress'/quickie rough export mixes, back-ups, and doubles as the final 2-mix 'master export.

Happy hunting. :)
 
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