I was talking about the RMS although i'm not too sure about this as well.. southside was saying around -17 or -22 I guess that gives lots of headroom for the peaks wich is a good thing.. Although i think mattkw80 is concerned with the final volume so he's kinda getting into the mastering domain.
Best Recording Levels
- Thread starter mattkw80
- Start date
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
REAPER has peak AND RMS metering on the main buss
You can use the "display offset" option if you are calibrating with the k-metering system, or if you just perfer it to look a certain way. Right click the main meter and you get these controls
Ugh, are pics disabled again?
http://shup.com/Shup/16429/10801234147mastervusettwy7.png
Farview
Well-known member
Most super loud commercial CDs AFTER mastering are sitting at -9dbfs average. You would really be hard pressed to get a mix anywhere near that.
You might be confusing average level with average peak level. Average peak level is where the peaks on the meter seem to land the most. Average level is where the decay of the notes sit, ignoring the peaks.
Alrighty....
To recap.......
There are 2 meters on a master bus I want to watch...... PEAK and RMS.
Peak can do whatever, as long as it don't clip.
RMS should ride somewhere between -17 to -22.
CD's end up somewhere around -9 after they've been mastered.
Do I have this right ?
Also.... if I buy and study the Bob Katz book, will I become decently knowledgable in this area, assuming I can grasp the concepts ?
You guys all know these gain stageing terms, numbers, measurements etc. like the back of your hands, but I'm feeling left out, as if there is a whole world of stuff I should know but don't.
I take it there are alot of guys like me that don't know this stuff, but should ?
Is this like..... trying to be an expert in Windows, but without having first learned DOS ?
To recap.......
There are 2 meters on a master bus I want to watch...... PEAK and RMS.
Peak can do whatever, as long as it don't clip.
RMS should ride somewhere between -17 to -22.
CD's end up somewhere around -9 after they've been mastered.
Do I have this right ?
Also.... if I buy and study the Bob Katz book, will I become decently knowledgable in this area, assuming I can grasp the concepts ?
You guys all know these gain stageing terms, numbers, measurements etc. like the back of your hands, but I'm feeling left out, as if there is a whole world of stuff I should know but don't.
I take it there are alot of guys like me that don't know this stuff, but should ?
Is this like..... trying to be an expert in Windows, but without having first learned DOS ?
Farview
Well-known member
You will have to go out and find a VU meter for your master buss.
Yup.
They end up where ever the mastering engineer smashes them to. Some stuff is mastered to -15dbfs rms. Some stuff is -6dbfs rms.
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pipelineaudio
Well-known member
He's got one
I find it safest to use your A/D converters metering, not your DAW's. Then you know that 0dBFS means you're out of bits, period. If you want to use your DAW's meters for recording, you really need to know how they are calibrated relative to your converters, and how their ballistics react. Do the math, and also spend some time watching both before ignoring the converter's metering.
IloveJesus
New member
This is one of the most useful threads I have read in a long time. Thank you so much. I'm excited (even though I have to re-record all my songs).
I'm a newbie, and I was under the impression that I should be recording in as loud as possible without clipping. Shoot! I was getting so much distortion and then when I mixed down, I couldn't get a decent volume.
This isn't to say that my problems are solved ("normalizing"), but now I get it.
One other question: When importing mp3s or wave files, how to I set those levels ahead of time.
For example: Sometimes I use Fruity Loops to make drum tracks. Then I make an MP3 out of the drum track (in stereo) to import into my Cakewalk program. Should I be keep the drum track that I import as low as possible before making an mp3 out of it?
I guess clipped tracks are, in the mix, pushing the whole thing down too far.
This is all fascinating.
I might actually learn how to get a really good recording soon.
And then, after that, all I need to be successful is to find some talent.
Don't get me started on songwriting. I'm a kook.
I'm a newbie, and I was under the impression that I should be recording in as loud as possible without clipping. Shoot! I was getting so much distortion and then when I mixed down, I couldn't get a decent volume.
This isn't to say that my problems are solved ("normalizing"), but now I get it.
One other question: When importing mp3s or wave files, how to I set those levels ahead of time.
For example: Sometimes I use Fruity Loops to make drum tracks. Then I make an MP3 out of the drum track (in stereo) to import into my Cakewalk program. Should I be keep the drum track that I import as low as possible before making an mp3 out of it?
I guess clipped tracks are, in the mix, pushing the whole thing down too far.
This is all fascinating.
I might actually learn how to get a really good recording soon.
And then, after that, all I need to be successful is to find some talent.
Don't get me started on songwriting. I'm a kook.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Well, once again, to make sure we're talking apples and apples, as matt put it, matt asked what levels he should be "mixing down at". I took that to mean - and I believe Jay and John did also - that he was talking about the levels when creating the 2mix, before any mastering has been applied.
Another source of confusion here, I think. He doesn't want (or at least I would not recommend) that he use RMS metering on the main buss while mixing. The thing to watch for on the main buss is to make sure you're not clipping on the peaks; i.e. I'd prefer to have my master meters set to peak response during mixing.pipelineaudio said:
The RMS metering - as relates to the issues discussed in this thread - is IMHO most needed on the individual track metering during recording, not on the master buss during mixing, and not even so much on the track meters during mixing. The whole idea behind the RMS metering as I see it related to this thread is in calibrating the input to the converter in cases like this where the converter itself has no useful metering. Put simply, if you have the input gain in the software set to unity, and you know the conversion factor on your converter, then you can use the RMS metering on the track input to act as a "close enough" proxy to having a VU meter on the converter. Just dial in ine input on the converter until the dbFS meter is bouncing somewhere close to the dbFS reading that equates to 0VU, and you're set pretty good. I assume Reaper will let you do that on the track meters as well.
Once mixing, I personally couldn't give a rat's ass what my digital RMS levels are. I know I came in recording my tracks at good levels, so it's just a matter of mixing them. The only level I'm worried about is to make sure I don't clip any peaks. I need peak level metering for that, both on the tracks and on the mix buss. The rest will be what it will be. The fact that the mix usually comes in for me at somewhere between -17 and -22 dBFS RMS is not a target taht I shoot for, it's just the way the cookie crumbles, and I only even know that out of pure curiosity by historically checking RMS levels after the mix is done.
G.
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
All I care on the input is not clipping the peaks, and trying to stay around my hardware units' zero point. I wouldn't need nor care about rms meters on my converters or my software's input
I may have not asked the question properly originally.
When mixing my (let's say 16) 16 tracks of audio, down to my 2 track stereo mix - I tend to watch the master meter occasionally. (Maybe that's bad).
So my question was What level should that master meter average?
I didn't even realize there are PEAK and RMS meters... which is cool that it's been brought up, because know I am going to learn about it.
REAPER's Master meter look like this : http://www.effortlessrecords.com/reaper.jpg
As you can see from the picture, the master meter has a middle section and a section on the outside, which I take it is the RMS side.
The tracks (see the track in the picture "cowbells") just have the -54 to -inf meter.
So Glen.... I'll just watch the center of the master meter, and make sure it don't clip. Is that correct ?
See how the "sides" of the master meter are going up into the orange? Sometimes those sides will go way up into the red, and it seems to happen more often if I used a Limited on the master bus.
Why would that be happening?
(I can make it happen and provide a picture if need be)
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
No, there's nothing "bad" about that.
IMHO, don't worry about it. Just watch the peaks to make sure you're not clipping and let the rest do what it does..mattkw80 said:
That's how I work it..mattkw80 said:
I'm not sure what exactly those meters are showing, I'll defer to pipeline on that one. They look like what you describe, but I don't quite understand the graduated markings on those meters.mattkw80 said:
What I would say, though, is that I would hold off on the master buss limiter. Some may disagree with me on this, but I don't really see the point myself of crushing the mix *during mixing*. If you gotta limit-crush it (do you really gotta???
), wait unto you are actually ready to; which may not be until after you've done other things to the two mix during (pre-)mastering first.G.
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
The RMS meter has a user selectable offset so that you can have yellow or red start at different places relative to your peak level. Actually they can be any colors, but by default there is green yellow and red. I have my "0' of the RMS scale set to -14 peak, and the RMS+3 switch on, for instance.
This gives me a zero level to aim for that is far short of the peak.
This gives me a zero level to aim for that is far short of the peak.
Glen,
I generally try not to limit (crush) the bus, and most times don't even do it.
The only time I do is when I've got something somewhere jumping up and peaking on me - and I can't put my finger on what it is.
So hopefully, that limiter would only be acting on that 1 rogue transient.
I generally try not to limit (crush) the bus, and most times don't even do it.
The only time I do is when I've got something somewhere jumping up and peaking on me - and I can't put my finger on what it is.
So hopefully, that limiter would only be acting on that 1 rogue transient.
pipelineaudio
Well-known member
with a 64 bit float signal path though, theres really no point in limiting anything. When its time to master, Glen or whoever will tell you how to get it into a format he can use.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I missed this response last night.
You're right, pipe, when it comes to the actual recording, peaks are the thing to watch for. I probably should have said "recording set-up" whein I taked about using the RMS meters for calibration. Once calibrated, then yep, staying away from clipping territory is what matters when the red light comes on.
G.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Not if it's across the 2-buss... Find out what's causing it and put the limiter there.
Farview
Well-known member
That's because you have hardware with meters. That's another thing that confuses people: Most of the guys that understand gain structure have or have used systems where everything was separate. Preamps, recorders, mixers, compressors, and effects units were all, at one time, separate pieces of equipment. You had to learn gain structure to interface all that correctly. Now there are so many all-in-one units that people are learning on, many don't realize that there are still separate processes going on and that you have to mind the levels between them. It also doesn't help that there is a general lack of useful metering in most of these things.