gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
The ear required to know when not to touch stuff is as sophisticated as the ear that can hear the jewels in the mud.
at what point do you call yourself an Audio Engineer?
- Thread starter thajeremy
- Start date
The ear required to know when not to touch stuff is as sophisticated as the ear that can hear the jewels in the mud.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Very true. Yet the difference in sophistication in application of technique is a magnitude apart. One is just a small subset of the other.
One can have the ears to tell when not to mess with a mix without having the ability to actually fix a mix that needs it. OTOH, Having the ability to fix a mix that needs it means also having the ears to recognize when it doesn't need it.
With that in mind, how is your average listener - and often even experienced engineer - to tell the difference in engineering ability between a grade A mix created from grade B tracking and a grade A mix made from grade A tracking? And then when you add on quality mastering by someone else yet again, raising both of them to A+ results, the situation is even that much more unclear. Yet the amount of "engineering" involved and just who is executing it is entirely different in each case.
G.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
They can't...they don't...and basically most couldn't care less.
It's "the song" that counts.
A wanky sounding guitar or an off-key vocal or any of the other stuff we recordists get all worked up about around here...usually has little impact on the average listener's appreciation.
Yeah...OK...even if they don't realize it, all that work you spent on the editing and mixing adds up to what they hear in "the song"...but still, they are NOT critically listening to it...EVER!!!
I think that's just what we audio guys do...possibly because we are all a little OCD.
From my own recording approach (regardless of any likes/dislikes anyone may have about it
)...it's been more about the overall vibe, which I sorta adopted from the British school of recording rather than the more analytical/surgical approach on this side of the Atlantic (not always, but in general).So the listener...is he really going to like the song more or less if the EQ on the Bass guitar is more this way than that way...???
I doubt it.
I think most people listen past all that stuff, and it's a deeper "hook" that will catch them (or not).
I guess you can call it the inherent essence of the song...which in most cases will come through regardless of the treatments during recording.
That's not to say everyone should just slap shit together...but I think good music will come through in spite of the audio engineering...and vice versa.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Oh absolutely. I agree 100% with your entire post.They can't...they don't...and basically most couldn't care less.
It's "the song" that counts.
But that probably applies more as to whether one can call themselves a musician than it it does applying the title audio engineer.
G.
bunt
Hand-Crank Mixer
I hope you guys feel good about the work you do because I think people (ave. listener) do indeed notice. Maybe not so much in the area of distinguishing excellent from nearly excellent, or even very good from excellent, but they sure as hell notice when something sounds home made. I hear this all the time from people. ... or maybe they listen to a Lyle Lovett or Delbert McClinton CD just after their favorite Killers CD and remark on "how good Lovett sounds even when they don't like his music
... or maybe this is all about the fact that I'm the ONLY person at work today out of 1900 people... and as you can see, I'm working hard
... or maybe this is all about the fact that I'm the ONLY person at work today out of 1900 people... and as you can see, I'm working hard
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No...you are not the only person at work...and yes, I too am working hard!
I think you missed my points...
I agree that people can tell if something sounds generally good or bad. What I'm saying is that the average listener doesn't make that judgment with a very critical ear towards the same audio minutia that most audio/music guys would do.
Also...there is a LOT of mediocre music sound-quality-wise...BUT...it has a vibe, it has a good beat, it has good lyrics...and so people think it's really good. Meanwhile...an audio aficionados will listen and right away say..."the vocal is off-key"...or "the guitar sounds too mushy"...etc...etc.
Point being...what is REALLY important here???
And more so...what is really important to the audience...the people actually listening to (and hopefully buying) the music???
It certainly isn't all the little "details" that we tend to debate around here to the point of heated arguments!!!
And that’s where my general approach is to how I record. Sure, I still make every attempt to fine-tune the details…but I think with just about any decent song, you can do it 10 different ways (each valid or objectionable to typical audio-nuts)…and most any of those will work about the same for your average listener.
IOW…it may not be important for recordists to get all worked about the very small details…like…”the XYZ should have been panned 2-clicks more to the left”.
I think you missed my points...
I agree that people can tell if something sounds generally good or bad. What I'm saying is that the average listener doesn't make that judgment with a very critical ear towards the same audio minutia that most audio/music guys would do.
Also...there is a LOT of mediocre music sound-quality-wise...BUT...it has a vibe, it has a good beat, it has good lyrics...and so people think it's really good. Meanwhile...an audio aficionados will listen and right away say..."the vocal is off-key"...or "the guitar sounds too mushy"...etc...etc.
Point being...what is REALLY important here???
And more so...what is really important to the audience...the people actually listening to (and hopefully buying) the music???
It certainly isn't all the little "details" that we tend to debate around here to the point of heated arguments!!!
And that’s where my general approach is to how I record. Sure, I still make every attempt to fine-tune the details…but I think with just about any decent song, you can do it 10 different ways (each valid or objectionable to typical audio-nuts)…and most any of those will work about the same for your average listener.
IOW…it may not be important for recordists to get all worked about the very small details…like…”the XYZ should have been panned 2-clicks more to the left”.
Yonce N Mild
Voice of Sanity
I'm gonna call myself an audio engineer right now and there is nothing you guys can do about it.
I'm an audio engineer.
I'm an audio engineer.
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
Good deal! Just like wearing your best set of Calvin Klein's or your Tommy Hilfiger collection.I'm gonna call myself an audio engineer right now and there is nothing you guys can do about it.
I'm an audio engineer.
Yonce N Mild
Voice of Sanity
legionserial
New member
You can call yourself anything you like as long as you're honest and preceed it with the word 'amateur'.
bunt
Hand-Crank Mixer
No...you are not the only person at work...and yes, I too am working hard!
I think you missed my points...
haha...well I was working too hard...
thanks for the re-do, tho. I think it helped make you points settle in more clearly. My head's forcast for today sez
Mostly Cloudy with a chance of brain
Being as I'm quite new to all this let me offer a different argument.
I think you can consider yourself to be an audio engineer when you have a portfolio of work that the public can listen to and not find fault with. Even the most casual of listeners can tell when something is too tinny or has too much bass or just plain sounds wrong.
Now hear me out on why I think this.
If you've been lucky enough to record a band with the skills of Brian May, Jeff Lorber, Patrice Rushen and Idris Muhammed and from the moment you've captured this music it sounds good and you left it for the most part untouched. Then that would by default make you an audio engineer. You realised you had quality to begin with and you left it as it sounded. The public are happy you are an audio engineer.
If you have recorded a band that the drummer plays too low and the guitarist is loud and the singer dips back and forth from the mic and you manage to bring this mess together to the point where the average Joe listens and doesn't notice the hard work you've put in then again you can call yourself an audio engineer. You recognised that there were problems with the recording and you fixed what you could and presented a cohesive product.
I think its on a very very basic level making something that can be seriously complicated seem so easy and effortless. Its you guys that record the 2nd scenario that make people like me think this is easy I can do that and after a year of throwing good money after bad in a music store realise that acutally this isn't as easy as it seems.
Thoughts?
I think you can consider yourself to be an audio engineer when you have a portfolio of work that the public can listen to and not find fault with. Even the most casual of listeners can tell when something is too tinny or has too much bass or just plain sounds wrong.
Now hear me out on why I think this.
If you've been lucky enough to record a band with the skills of Brian May, Jeff Lorber, Patrice Rushen and Idris Muhammed and from the moment you've captured this music it sounds good and you left it for the most part untouched. Then that would by default make you an audio engineer. You realised you had quality to begin with and you left it as it sounded. The public are happy you are an audio engineer.
If you have recorded a band that the drummer plays too low and the guitarist is loud and the singer dips back and forth from the mic and you manage to bring this mess together to the point where the average Joe listens and doesn't notice the hard work you've put in then again you can call yourself an audio engineer. You recognised that there were problems with the recording and you fixed what you could and presented a cohesive product.
I think its on a very very basic level making something that can be seriously complicated seem so easy and effortless. Its you guys that record the 2nd scenario that make people like me think this is easy I can do that and after a year of throwing good money after bad in a music store realise that acutally this isn't as easy as it seems.
Thoughts?
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
A very reasoned post, Barry, and well stated. If only it were that simple and true.
The problem is, unfortunately, the basic belief on which it is based, as quoted above, continuously exposes itself as wishful thinking on BBSs such as this one. It's simply amazing the numbers of people out there who consider themselves as more than just casual listeners, to the point of going out and spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on audio production gear, only to come on and have to ask strangers if their product sounds any good or not. Many times it sound pretty good, many other times there are what you or I might call obvious and correctable sonic flaws of which the person creating it hasn't a clue.
Even the basic listening biasses of relative volume, loudness, commercialism and genre, all of which a real audio engineer can easily recognize and account/adjust for, seem to stump the average home recordist. Not all; I don't mean to paint with an overly-broad brush; there is a lot of good talent out there in the public. But you'd probably be very unpleasantly surprised to find out just how poor, on overall average, the listener's ear actually is.
G.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
And it's not just that...IMO the "average listener" just plain hears or listens to things...differently!
On some level...I wish I could listen to things in that same manner again, as I find that once you've "tuned" your ears...there is NO going back to hearing things as an average listener, and from an audio perspective, it's the right way to be.
But at the same time...the AL almost always hears things as a whole, just letting the music wash over him rather than noticing every drop...and often the AL will ignore all those little things that irritate the tuned ear.
From a purely *music* perspective...it may be the "better" way to listen. From an audio perspective...well, that's where most of us fit in!
It's kinda like after you finish doing mixes...don't you notice how hard it is to just hear the music! 'Cuz you're almost always focusing on details.
I guess at that point...you're an audio engineer!
So true...oh so true.....
Being someone who is one's own "client", it's not easy to pass along my "vision" to folks who have lots of predetermined ideas about how stuff should sound, and they often use the "cookie-cutter" mentality and try to suggest that because my stuff doesn't sound like other stuff they are already familar with...therefore it's "ass".
But I plod on....it's a long journey...I know where I'm going, hopefully I will get there without having to change my vision.
Haha, I really hurt your feelings. Sorry about that. I was just being honest.
dobro
Well-known member
Not 'out there'.
In here.
I'd say the 10% rule applies to both audio engineers (people who make their living at this stuff) and home recordists. The 10% rule (I'm interviewing my own left thumb here, but you'll recognize the principle I'm describing anyway) is that in both camps about 10% of the people involved will shine at what they do. And if you listen to the best 10% of mixes done by home recordists, they'll be stuff that a pro would be satisfied with. And who are the 10% of audio engineers? Well, the guys we've all heard of - Clearmountain, Nichols, and so on. In both camps, the best 10% really have a handle on what they're doing. In the case of the pros, that 'really know what they're doing' is not only a matter of audio chops, but also personality, and marketing savvy.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
You didn't hurt my feelings.
I'm no newbie going at this for the first time who needs "forum approval" for his audio/music perspectives.
You were just being rude...repeatedly.
If that's your idea of creatively critisizing and being "honest"..well, you may want to rethink it.
Excellent. I'm going to try it.I'm gonna call myself an audio engineer right now and there is nothing you guys can do about it.
I'm an audio engineer.
I am an audio engineer.
....ah, that feels good.
But now I want more.
I am a mastering engineer.
...oooooh, ahhhhhh, that feels really good.
Discuss.
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You didn't hurt my feelings.
I'm no newbie going at this for the first time who needs "forum approval" for his audio/music perspectives.
You were just being rude...repeatedly.
If that's your idea of creatively critisizing and being "honest"..well, you may want to rethink it.
Calm down dude. No one said anything about forum approval. I was being honest and helpful. Sorry I didn't sugarcoat it enough for you. Next time, I'll be more gentle. Happy Thanksgiving.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm calm, Greg...
It's got nothing to do with "sugarcoating" it.
Even after I pointed out at the onset that you were listening to old, rough mixes...
...you just went on and on making mocking comments and then even resorting to lots of name-calling.
Usually, when people stoop to that...it's 'cuz they have no real substance to their argument.
I'm honestly not sure why you went that route, Greg…?...as you and I have not had a single exchange on these forums prior to that.
I've had many a discussion in the past with fellow musicians who were being helpful and honest, and none sugarcoating their views...BUT...the manner in which those views were presented wasn't rude.
Maybe if you started from a more respectful position and then offered actual positive criticism, we might have had a different exchange. Oh…and being respectful and positive in your critiques is NOT about sugarcoating it….it’s just about NOT being rude.
But the funniest thing in all of this to me was the fact that you WERE going on and on about what was already admitted to as being old, rough, unfinished mixes.
Are you one of those people that tells someone they “missed a spot”…over and over again…
…even when it’s obvious they are only part-way done?
But let’s not rehash anymore. I walked away from that argument…and now it’s followed me here to this thread.
If you want to say you are sorry for the rudeness...fine.
But then don’t “Haha, I really hurt your feelings.” try to gloat because you think you managed to actually do that.
I’m a big boy…this isn’t the first time I’ve encountered artistic rudeness. It doesn’t hurt my feelings, and it sure doesn’t make me want to change my artistic approach…
…but is it really necessary and a positive way to have a discussion?
And you have a Happy Thanksgiving too….
It's got nothing to do with "sugarcoating" it.
Even after I pointed out at the onset that you were listening to old, rough mixes...
...you just went on and on making mocking comments and then even resorting to lots of name-calling.
Usually, when people stoop to that...it's 'cuz they have no real substance to their argument.
I'm honestly not sure why you went that route, Greg…?...as you and I have not had a single exchange on these forums prior to that.
I've had many a discussion in the past with fellow musicians who were being helpful and honest, and none sugarcoating their views...BUT...the manner in which those views were presented wasn't rude.
Maybe if you started from a more respectful position and then offered actual positive criticism, we might have had a different exchange. Oh…and being respectful and positive in your critiques is NOT about sugarcoating it….it’s just about NOT being rude.
But the funniest thing in all of this to me was the fact that you WERE going on and on about what was already admitted to as being old, rough, unfinished mixes.
Are you one of those people that tells someone they “missed a spot”…over and over again…
…even when it’s obvious they are only part-way done?
But let’s not rehash anymore. I walked away from that argument…and now it’s followed me here to this thread.
If you want to say you are sorry for the rudeness...fine.
But then don’t “Haha, I really hurt your feelings.” try to gloat because you think you managed to actually do that.
I’m a big boy…this isn’t the first time I’ve encountered artistic rudeness. It doesn’t hurt my feelings, and it sure doesn’t make me want to change my artistic approach…
…but is it really necessary and a positive way to have a discussion?
And you have a Happy Thanksgiving too….