A very frustrated musician. (Particularly need help with recording lead guitar)

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MusicWater said:
Please do some research into this, I promise it will pay off...
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Sorry for the longwinded OT post McK, I just want to add a viewpoint about instrument tuning from personal practical experience. I was always fascinated as to how consensus on the tuning of instruments was arrived at. I knew a lot of the arguments against A= 440Hz, how this was a relatively modern standard, as well as the conspiracy/new age stuff. But to me there was enough history and hype regarding the evolution of standard tunings to warrant personal investigation, beyond just 'research'.

To cut it short, for a period I mucked around with alternate tunings 432 - 430 - 428 and a few others i forgot, including directly comparing the same pieces performed in various tunings. But by the end of it all, i had reached the conclusion that the impact of these tunings was far less noticeable than the actual harmony between the instruments in the piece, their timbre, the composition, performance, lyrical content etc., all things which we know give music it's emotional power. The difference was almost imperceptible to me as far as tonal harmony goes, i could perceive the difference in tones, and hear 'beating dissonance' in different ways when direct A/B comparing individual notes, but in a song with thousands of individual notes and complex polyphony, it all just faded into irrelevance, and was always swamped by the song. A lot of the perception was on such a minute scale that confirmation bias, trying to hear something that i knew should be there, may have been a bigger factor than any genuine acoustical effect to me.

As i said, this is just my personal experience, no axiom or law, and others feel far differently about this issue than i do. It's not my intent to shoot anyone down, i just thought it was a relevant counterpoint, and entirely an opinion. But i did say in another thread on this issue that you may have trouble finding other musicians to play with, or to convince them to retune their instruments to your favourite frequency, without becoming a pain in the ass. I understand where musicwater is coming from, on some level, but the methodology is suspect. I would encourage people to experiment with tunings themselves if i really wanted to push the point, and 'enlighten' someone, not say standard tuning is wrong, bad and out of tune. I'm happy with 440Hz - it suits my generally abrasive, harsh and flawed character perfectly. I'll lay all my cards on the table here and now, and ruin any credibility i may have - I'm no 'musicologist' - no expert - in fact I'm just a philosophy graduate who specialised in formal logic/lumberjack, but i'm no stranger to spouting spurious dross myself, which is about as close as i'll ever get. I'm also happy to be RAMI's decoy if musicwater wants to compare essays :D
 
Anders Erisian said:
I'm also happy to be RAMI's decoy if musicwater wants to compare essays :D
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I appreciate that, but I advise highly against it.

The only thing that can result from reading this guy's posts is a loss of brain cells. By the time you finish having a conversation with him, you'll be amazed by fire. :eek:
 
441 is often used as concert pitch - BUT everyone else will be there too. When "playing" 'cello I sometimes tune to it just to remnd myself of the difference.
When working out parts to record etc with the 'cello I use 440 becasue it's what I tune everything else too and it sounds right.
The notion of abuse has raised its head again.
Some relentless posts can be akin to waterboarding.
Others rather more like musical electrodes applied to genitalia.
Other still combine the two methods above to become musicwater.
 
Anders Erisian said:
It's not my intent to shoot anyone down
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That may not be your intention, which would make you more charitable than me.

I really don't care what people tune to, so long as they (if they are playing or recording together) all tune to the same thing.

But I do care when they make up mystical mumbo jumbo to assert one tuning is better than an other.
 
RAMI said:
Please make it stop.:facepalm:
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So, to this point...

We have many reasons to ban someone from the forums, but I feel censorship is not one of them. I would have difficulties banning someone because I didn't agree with his viewpoint. He is not being malicious, hurtful or disruptive, he's just being stupid and I can't ban him for that. The best weapon is to keep doing what you're doing... Call him out on his music, argue his points, facepalm his ridiculous notions, provide correct info when he is steering newbs in the wrong direction and be relentless. Please don't take to name calling and such.

I honestly think he is not trolling on purpose. I think he is trying to dispense knowledge that he thinks is right. And he likes to read his own words, so he is long-winded.

The good thing: His posts are self-censoring anyways. He uses a translator app to supplement his English and it doesn't work well. He is always TL/DR and no newb is going to take the time to read his posts.
 
Chili said:
So, to this point...

We have many reasons to ban someone from the forums, but I feel censorship is not one of them. I would have difficulties banning someone because I didn't agree with his viewpoint. He is not being malicious, hurtful or disruptive, he's just being stupid and I can't ban him for that. The best weapon is to keep doing what you're doing... Call him out on his music, argue his points, facepalm his ridiculous notions, provide correct info when he is steering newbs in the wrong direction and be relentless. Please don't take to name calling and such.

I honestly think he is not trolling on purpose. I think he is trying to dispense knowledge that he thinks is right. And he likes to read his own words, so he is long-winded.

The good thing: His posts are self-censoring anyways. He uses a translator app to supplement his English and it doesn't work well. He is always TL/DR and no newb is going to take the time to read his posts.
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Believe it or not, I totally agree with you. I actually went back last night and edited some of the more insulting things out of my posts. I don't believe he should be banned. When I said "Please make it stop", that's an expression, and I was talking to him, not you guys. I do find it wrong that Greg gets banned, even though his advice is always 100% right on, while this guy can still post. So, my problem isn't that this guy isn't banned. It's more about the fact that someone else IS banned.

The reason I point out how little he makes sense, how bad his advice is, how utterly stupid everything he says is because I want to make sure that a gullible Newbie won't take anything he says seriously. If I accomplish that, then I know I'm actually being helpful. I've never believed in censorship (up to a point). But I also don't think that someone like this should have free reign to spew complete bullshit and get away with it.

Also, I might be the most vocal about it, but it's obvious that every single person with an ounce of knowledge and common sense thinks this guy is just completely over the top full of crap. Some articulate it, others are more subtle about it. But, reading through the posts, I can see that many people are starting to lose their patience and starting to ditch the phony diplomacy. Enough is enough.
 
Anders Erisian said:
Sorry for the longwinded OT post McK, I just want to add a viewpoint about instrument tuning from personal practical experience. I was always fascinated as to how consensus on the tuning of instruments was arrived at. I knew a lot of the arguments against A= 440Hz, how this was a relatively modern standard, as well as the conspiracy/new age stuff. But to me there was enough history and hype regarding the evolution of standard tunings to warrant personal investigation, beyond just 'research'.

To cut it short, for a period I mucked around with alternate tunings 432 - 430 - 428 and a few others i forgot, including directly comparing the same pieces performed in various tunings. But by the end of it all, i had reached the conclusion that the impact of these tunings was far less noticeable than the actual harmony between the instruments in the piece, their timbre, the composition, performance, lyrical content etc., all things which we know give music it's emotional power. The difference was almost imperceptible to me as far as tonal harmony goes, i could perceive the difference in tones, and hear 'beating dissonance' in different ways when direct A/B comparing individual notes, but in a song with thousands of individual notes and complex polyphony, it all just faded into irrelevance, and was always swamped by the song. A lot of the perception was on such a minute scale that confirmation bias, trying to hear something that i knew should be there, may have been a bigger factor than any genuine acoustical effect to me.

As i said, this is just my personal experience, no axiom or law, and others feel far differently about this issue than i do. It's not my intent to shoot anyone down, i just thought it was a relevant counterpoint, and entirely an opinion. But i did say in another thread on this issue that you may have trouble finding other musicians to play with, or to convince them to retune their instruments to your favourite frequency, without becoming a pain in the ass. I understand where musicwater is coming from, on some level, but the methodology is suspect. I would encourage people to experiment with tunings themselves if i really wanted to push the point, and 'enlighten' someone, not say standard tuning is wrong, bad and out of tune. I'm happy with 440Hz - it suits my generally abrasive, harsh and flawed character perfectly. I'll lay all my cards on the table here and now, and ruin any credibility i may have - I'm no 'musicologist' - no expert - in fact I'm just a philosophy graduate who specialised in formal logic/lumberjack, but i'm no stranger to spouting spurious dross myself, which is about as close as i'll ever get. I'm also happy to be RAMI's decoy if musicwater wants to compare essays :D
Click to expand...

I don't think I've ever gotten to the technical side of music in this nature. I've heard a lot of how slight/natural differentiation of tuning in a group can be beneficial but never really touched base on this topic. I mean in my logic, music and melodies are all relative so the same progression and modal sequence played in a different key will essentially create the same essence and effect as if it were played in it's original key. I mean that's not to say that taking a song 3 octaves down will relatively add no effect, but you get the picture. But I'm probably talking a different subject since most of all of your arguments have been about the effect of this frequency on brains and stuff..
 
That's a good read. Pretty much summed up what I was thinking as soon as I started reading about 432. Only, he put it in words way better than I could have....
 
There is an old saying that goes like this: When the head is already sticked deeply into the sand, it might take some time to discover that. I am not saying that is the case here, my point is just that there is a risk.

Start by putting in the standard 440 Hz tuning into a sine wave mulitone generator. That is a great start of discovering that the head might actually be in the sand...
 
MusicWater said:
There is an old saying that goes like this: When the head is already sticked deeply into the sand, it might take some time to discover that. I am not saying that is the case here, my point is just that there is a risk.

Start by putting in the standard 440 Hz tuning into a sine wave mulitone generator. That is a great start of discovering that the head might actually be in the sand...
Click to expand...

Someone should have taught the 'old sayer' some grammar!

Please read this before going on any more about 432Hz.
 
MusicWater said:
Start by putting in the standard 440 Hz tuning into a sine wave mulitone generator.
Click to expand...
I'd love to know what this is supposed to prove.
MusicWater said:
Start by putting in the standard 440 Hz tuning into a sine wave mulitone generator. That is a great start of discovering that the head might actually be in the sand...
Click to expand...
The "440 is evil and injurious to humans and rejected by the universe" philosophy is from the same kind of school of thought as the "never end songs with a minor"/"avoid the 'rock beat' as it's from the uncivilized jungles of Africa and will dredge up demons and lewd acts will follow !"/"rock has to be loud and rebellious"/"play Mozart while your unborn child is in the womb and it will be intelligent"/"paint rooms light blue for calm, reflective behaviour" type of assertions.
Of course, there is the possibility that all these things and more could be true.
It could also be true that "The Wizard of Oz" and Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the moon" are indeed synchronized......
 
MusicWater said:
There is an old saying that goes like this: When the head is already sticked deeply into the sand, it might take some time to discover that.
Click to expand...

Of course, there are those who have their heads up their ass....and they usually need no time at all to discover that they do, they just like having it there. I am not saying that is the case here, my point is just that many people do.


Start by reading about the history of the A=_______ reference frequency, and you find that it's been all over the place, both below and above 440Hz, and that there really is NOTHING magical/special about A=432Hz

That's just one of those "my music will sound better and special if I detune the 440 reference by about 30 cents" movements.
 
Chili said:
Let's forget the fact that this sentence makes absolutely no sense at all... just tell us what you want to say instead of being elusive.
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I understand you're not in favor of censorship ..... but, IMO, you shouldn't allow people to post blatant nonsense in the newbie section.

What's next?
Letting someone warn against recording right after the 'chemtrails' have been sprayed?

:facepalm:
 
A couple on here have suggested getting a different interface. What are some other opinions on this? And if it ends up that I get a new interface, which one is recommended (And affordable)? I'm not really worried about inputs (I only need to be able to have 2 simultaneous records but more would probably be beneficial down the line) but as a few have suggested; I may need something that has better "conversion quality". I don't know if this is really a concern, I haven't heard about conversion quality as an issue on the interface I own. I may end up selling it for another if it's necessary.
 
Well I think your interface is fine for what you're doing now. Are you using the presets on the amp or the Pod farm stuff? The lead sounds ok sort of a Santana PRS flavor. It's a little loud in the mix for me but overall I think the track is pretty darn good for 15 yo.
 
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