Snare Drum Mic picks up too much other crap

[KenekeBarnes]

The title says it all. I'm trying to isolate a snare drum in a set with one of those clip-on condensers, but the high hat right next to it keeps coming in (even with noise gating), making it hard to add FX to the track. I tried going back to an SM-57, but the snare records dead and dull. Is there another type of mike to use, or should I just EQ the SM-57 track?

[gcapel]

Your going to get bleed. With an i5 or a 57. I usually use the close snare track to add attack to the snare sound in the over all mix. Most of the snare sound IMO should come from your overheads. I usually have the close snare channel buried enough were bleeding isn;t really going to matter. Some compression would help too on the close snare channel.

I maybe wrong in this. Hopefully youll hear some other ideas.

[jonnyc]

Is whoever that's playing the snare hitting it properly? They should be attacking the shit outta the snare, make that hooker pop. On the flip side tell whoever it is to settle down on the cymbals, no need to mash them. It may be their thing and thats fine, just tell them to tone down their thing just a bit for the good of the recording. Playing properly will cure most of your micing problems.

[giraffe]

my go to snare mic is a rode nt3, it's much brighter than a sm57 but it's a hyper cardi so the bleed is manageable even though it's a condenser.


sometimes the hat's still a bitch though......... it's got a lot to do with the drummer.

[KenekeBarnes]

Originally Posted by gcapel

Most of the snare sound IMO should come from your overheads.

Glad you said that, cause that's where I currently am getting it from! That and a hidden-in-the-mix close track, just like you.

[KenekeBarnes]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

They should be attacking the shit outta the snare, make that hooker pop. On the flip side tell whoever it is to settle down on the cymbals, no need to mash them.

I'll give that a shot

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by KenekeBarnes

Glad you said that, cause that's where I currently am getting it from! That and a hidden-in-the-mix close track, just like you.

Well if a kit's played properly, 3 mics is all you'll ever need. OH's and kick.

[Drewcifer666]

Ah, an age old complaint. This is why noise gates were invented. The condenser is going to be brighter but there will be lots of bleed. Here are a couple of tips:

1) Go to an Shure Beta57A, it is brighter and crackier than a classic 57.
2) Use a bottom mic, an inexpensive condenser or even another 57 is fine. Don't forget to reverse the polarity (flip the phase) on the bottom mic.
3) Use smaller, thinner, more polite hi-hats
5) Work with tuning to maximize tone and volume.
6) Don't forget you can put tape on cymbals and hats too.

I also disagree with the "whomp the crap out of the snare as hard as you can" school. Hitting it too hard, which lots of drummers do, will not really make it pop. It can make the sound thuddy muddy and whonky when recorded. It also plays havoc with the overheads, where the snare will end up being the loudest thing, and therefore hard to manipulate in mix. Hitting it real hard can actually choke the sound of the drum.

A good drummer will know just the right velocity and sweet-spot to hit the snare and toms to get them to "speak", aka "pop". It's more of a wrist action than a forearm thing.

As my esteemed colleague Johhnyc said, there's no substitute for a drummer who knows how to hit. Sadly, since this is becoming a lost art (like recording itself), we now have samples and sound replacer and drum-a-gog, etc.

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by Drewcifer666

Ah, an age old complaint. This is why noise gates were invented. The condenser is going to be brighter but there will be lots of bleed. Here are a couple of tips:

1) Go to an Shure Beta57A, it is brighter and crackier than a classic 57.
2) Use a bottom mic, an inexpensive condenser or even another 57 is fine. Don't forget to reverse the polarity (flip the phase) on the bottom mic.
3) Use smaller, thinner, more polite hi-hats
5) Work with tuning to maximize tone and volume.
6) Don't forget you can put tape on cymbals and hats too.

I also disagree with the "whomp the crap out of the snare as hard as you can" school. Hitting it too hard, which lots of drummers do, will not really make it pop. It can make the sound thuddy muddy and whonky when recorded. It also plays havoc with the overheads, where the snare will end up being the loudest thing, and therefore hard to manipulate in mix. Hitting it real hard can actually choke the sound of the drum.

A good drummer will know just the right velocity and sweet-spot to hit the snare and toms to get them to "speak", aka "pop". It's more of a wrist action than a forearm thing.

As my esteemed colleague Johhnyc said, there's no substitute for a drummer who knows how to hit. Sadly, since this is becoming a lost art (like recording itself), we now have samples and sound replacer and drum-a-gog, etc.

I agree with some of what you say, though I think you're making it a bit difficult. However I still say you gotta hit those drums, never said forearm, it is all wrist, but you can't be a pussy when you're hitting a drum.

[RAMI]

I'm not saying an SM57 is the only choice, but if you're saying that the snare sounds dull through the 57, then there's something wrong with the tuning. It shouldn't sound "BAD" through a 57 even if you might prefer another mic. That's sort of besides the point, because it doesn't address your bleed issue.

As far as the bleed is soncerned, like has been mentioned, you will get bleed, it's normal. You should get most of your sound through the overheads and just use the snare track to enhance as much or as little as you need to.
I totally disagree with using a gate on your snare. If a drummer plays with any kind of dynamics and uses ghost strokes, a gate will be a nightmare. Either you'll have to set it so low that other things will occassionally bleed through anyway. Or, if you set it high enough so that other things don't bleed through, then you won't get those ghost (or "grace") notes coming through.
Like Johnny says, you should be hitting the snare with authority. And make sure it's tuned well, too. You can't fix it in the mix if it isn't.

[Drewcifer666]

If a drummer plays with any kind of dynamics and uses ghost strokes, a gate will be a nightmare.

I found a way around that years ago. Because I do gate the top snare mic pretty regularly...not all the time. I mean if it's jazz or blues or something, no I won't gate, but for rock I typically do so I can get control of the snare in the mix.

I find that ghost strokes will get picked up by the overheads, and more importantly, the snare-bottom mic. Ghost strokes and light hits tend to set off the snares more than the top-head anyway. So I do NOT gate the bottom mic.

Between the overheads and the bottom, I don't miss any light hits.

And yes, you do have to hit loud and solid, but a few years ago there was this school of literally wallop the drums as hard as you can in the studio. I bought in to that for a while. The results were not great. Then one day, I told my drummer to stop playing rim-shots and back off on the velocity of everything, and suddenly, bang, I had this beautiful studio drum sound.

[chessrock]

This is really one of the most challenging aspects of micing a kit, and probably the most common "problem" you'll run in to ... but very easily preventable. I find that the problem really only comes in to play when you're dealing with an open hi-hat. It's just not that much of a problem if the drummer keeps it closed for the most part. A closed hi-hat is very rarely a problem. If it is, then you've got bigger issues.

If you just set the hi-hat up so that the most it will possibly open is like a millimeter, then that will take care of 90% of the problem -- right there. Only potential trouble is that the drummer probably won't like it, and will try to re-set it when you're not looking.

Try and explain to him/her that the hi-hat is not to be used as an extra crash or ride cymbal, and that there are reasons why those particular cymbals exist on a kit. Barring that, you can always resort to using a bottom mic, or even a side mic. Lots of people like the sound of mic'ing the shell better than the top anyway, so you might as well give it a try. It gives you more placement options, allowing you to either get it further away from the hat or more in the mic's rejection null.

.

[TripleJ]

Originally Posted by chessrock

This is really one of the most challenging aspects of micing a kit, and probably the most common "problem" you'll run in to ... but very easily preventable. I find that the problem really only comes in to play when you're dealing with an open hi-hat. It's just not that much of a problem if the drummer keeps it closed for the most part. A closed hi-hat is very rarely a problem. If it is, then you've got bigger issues.

If you just set the hi-hat up so that the most it will possibly open is like a millimeter, then that will take care of 90% of the problem -- right there. Only potential trouble is that the drummer probably won't like it, and will try to re-set it when you're not looking.

Try and explain to him/her that the hi-hat is not to be used as an extra crash or ride cymbal, and that there are reasons why those particular cymbals exist on a kit. Barring that, you can always resort to using a bottom mic, or even a side mic. Lots of people like the sound of mic'ing the shell better than the top anyway, so you might as well give it a try. It gives you more placement options, allowing you to either get it further away from the hat or more in the mic's rejection null.

.

I think it's a little rude to limit a drummers sonic variety by telling them not to use the hi-hats as accent cymbals. I think most would be a little bit put off if you said that.

[orksnork]

here's my 2c...

firstly...as already mentioned...maybe try a hypercardiod mic...a lot of people's goto snare mic is a Beyer M201...

ASIDE from buying anything new....

work on mic placement and figure out how to make bleed GOOD...your snare might sound a little EH solo'd but if you add that together with overheads and room mics....it might be just what the doctor ordered

one of the greatest advancements ive made in recording drums since i started was embracing the bleed and using it to create an audible picture of the kit

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by TripleJ

I think it's a little rude to limit a drummers sonic variety by telling them not to use the hi-hats as accent cymbals. I think most would be a little bit put off if you said that.

But being in a studio is a different beast than playing live. Sometimes(I find it to be often) musicians don't understand that there is a difference. Some will even argue the tone in their Marshall mg100 is superior to my Mesa Boogie. I almost always set a drummers hats for him, and also explain that mashing the cymbals, even if it is "their style" doesn't translate well in a recording, and the goal is to capture the best recording possible. There isn't anything rude about it, you're doing your clients a great service by making their recording not sound like shit.

[Uladine]

Originally Posted by chessrock

If you just set the hi-hat up so that the most it will possibly open is like a millimeter, then that will take care of 90% of the problem -- right there. Only potential trouble is that the drummer probably won't like it, and will try to re-set it when you're not looking.
.

I think if I were the drummer in that situation I would lose confidence in the recording engineer. I'm a big fan of wide open sloshy hi hats and letting the hats just sizzle by having them barely open would drastically alter the feel of the song. If the song calls for wide open hats, its the engineers job to capture that, not dodge it.

[Bondo]

My $.02 on this:

I generally think of micing the drums as trying to mic one instrument, not a series of single instruments that I want completely isolated. I look at bleed as something that will happen. I only use the close micing of the drums to accent their sound within the overall tone of the drums that I get from the kick and overheads. On the snare though I am finding that I do like to stick a condenser underneath the drum (cheap MXL) with a 57 on top. I mean of coarse there is highhat bleadthrough, but I expect that, and I just mix to try to get the whole sound of the kit. This is what I have found to be the most affective.

Finally, the biggest key is tuning for a good sound. I am not a drummer and cannot tune drums, but I can tell when they are tuned well and when they are not. This is key, along with a good room sound as well.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by TripleJ

I think it's a little rude to limit a drummers sonic variety by telling them not to use the hi-hats as accent cymbals. I think most would be a little bit put off if you said that.

This is another one of those "Are you dealing with a musician or a mullet with an instrument?" issues.

Assuming he actually IS a drummer and not just some chimpanzee with sticks, telling him that he has to change his arrangement because you aren't good enough of an engineer to make that arrangement sound good is probably not the way to go.

OTOH, if you're dealing with someone who simply doesn't know how to play drums - a far too common occurance these days of independant recording - then I probably wouldn't have a problem instructing him that his "playing" is what's messing up the mix. That's no different than telling a guitarist that his track sounds horrible because his still hasn't learned how to play an Am chord cleanly.

As far as gates, they aren't going to help with bleed during the meat of the snare envelope. If the bleed is thick enough to audibly coexist with the main snare sound itself, a gate isn't going to do any good there.

And, FWIW, I heartily agree with the school of getting the main kit sound from the stereo mics (OH or front) and using the individual mics - if any - in supporting roles beef up the main kit sound from "underneath" the mix. But, admittedly, that's a matter of style and taste only, not something to be chisled in stone.

G.

[giraffe]

Originally Posted by TripleJ

I think it's a little rude to limit a drummers sonic variety by telling them not to use the hi-hats as accent cymbals. I think most would be a little bit put off if you said that.

yea but here's the thing..........
if it's a problem at all i find (hold you breath this is super not pc)

it's the drummer.
yup, i said it.
i've never run into this with a good drummer.
never,
ever.


so, if i feel inclined (or possibly forced) to tell some one that maybe calming down on the hats a little is a good idea (something i rarely have to do)
probably, it's their fault.

[bigtoe]

Originally Posted by giraffe

yea but here's the thing..........
if it's a problem at all i find (hold you breath this is super not pc)

it's the drummer.
yup, i said it.
i've never run into this with a good drummer.
never,
ever.


so, if i feel inclined (or possibly forced) to tell some one that maybe calming down on the hats a little is a good idea (something i rarely have to do)
probably, it's their fault.

the ones who are new or insecure won't take suggestions well. the more experienced ones will listen and and decide for themselves. if you point it out not as a 'problem' but just go "hey...do you hear that? is that the way you want it?" they will adjust. then have them sign your waver that says they made that decision, and bring it to the mastering session.

a good freind of mine is a great drummer...i just finished mixing a project he played on and he said he wished he would have played 50% less. i tried to tell him that...but he was too busy wacking the cymbals.

the worst drummers bleed in their snare even if it's way isolated...the good ones you can use a flipping omni...makes no dif...they sound great.

Off topic - never take bio chemistry over the web. it hurts.

Mike

[chessrock]

It's really just a matter of what's important to the drummer, and where his priorities lie.

If he really wants totally clean snare hits, and he wants them bad enough, then he should listen to the expert and take his suggestions ... provided the Engineer knows what he's talking about.

He doesn't have to listen. No one's holding a gun to the guy's head. The drummer can take it in to consideration and act on it ... or he can chime in and tell me he doesn't like the idea. But as an engineer, I think I owe it to the guys I'm hired by to at least tell them the best way to achieve what they're trying to achieve. Maybe the drummer wants the clean snare hits, but not bad enough to alter his playing style, and that's fine ... so you settle on another compromise and move on.

Getting back to my point ... using the hat as an accent isn't a problem, but using it as an extra crash or ride cymbal is. And you have a choice in this matter. This isn't about the skill of an engineer. We're talking about the laws of physics and sound ... and no matter who you are, you can't get around the fact that there is a cymbal less than 6 inches away from the fucking mic, and someone is bashing it with a wooden stick. That's not bleed. That's just the mic doing what it does -- pick up sound.

If you stick your mouth six inches away from a mic and yell really loud, and the mic picks up your voice ... do you call that bleed, too?


.

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

This is another one of those "Are you dealing with a musician or a mullet with an instrument?" issues.

Assuming he actually IS a drummer and not just some chimpanzee with sticks, telling him that he has to change his arrangement because you aren't good enough of an engineer to make that arrangement sound good is probably not the way to go.

OTOH, if you're dealing with someone who simply doesn't know how to play drums - a far too common occurance these days of independant recording - then I probably wouldn't have a problem instructing him that his "playing" is what's messing up the mix. That's no different than telling a guitarist that his track sounds horrible because his still hasn't learned how to play an Am chord cleanly.

As far as gates, they aren't going to help with bleed during the meat of the snare envelope. If the bleed is thick enough to audibly coexist with the main snare sound itself, a gate isn't going to do any good there.

And, FWIW, I heartily agree with the school of getting the main kit sound from the stereo mics (OH or front) and using the individual mics - if any - in supporting roles beef up the main kit sound from "underneath" the mix. But, admittedly, that's a matter of style and taste only, not something to be chisled in stone.

G.

That is the main problem, I've recorded 20 plus bands in the last 2 years. All the drummers but 2 weren't really drummers. They were bass players, singers, guitar players or just a guy the band knows that figures they can do a good enough job. The real drummers I've recorded, both of them, I didn't have to do a thing to, everything was top notch and beautiful, which makes my job easy as can be. Just to show you all what I personally deal with around these parts, I had a band come in and the drummer claimed he's played for 10 years, but hasn't really played in 5. I was like, OK, it's like riding a bike you'll pick it right back up. NOPE. He completely lied, he'd never played actual drums, just a lot of hand and foot tapping. I had to teach him how to play his song, before I jumped in the help the chorus's consisted of mashing the 16" crash and that was it, not one other piece of percussion. Guys like these need their hi hats set for them. BTW I've never had a drummer that I corrected give me much resistance at all, they were always eager to pick up new tips.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Jesus Christ, guys. I apologize for getting a little steamed, but think about some of this stuff. You're not a bunch of idiots, because I read some halfway intelligent stuff from some of you once in a while. But collectively, some of you really test my patience sometimes, and this is one of them.

By my count, chess, since your first post taking that position, the number of people agreeing with you (including myself, BTW) outnumber those disagreeing with you two to one. For this board, that's actually a pretty good S/N ratio. I'm not sure just what you're so steamed about?

G.

[chessrock]

I've just been having a bad day. I feel much better now, thankyou.

.

[NL5]

I briefly read thru the thread, so I apologize if this has been said, but to minimize the hi-hat, you really need to be aware of the mic's pattern and placement. I get very little bleed from the hats in my snare tracks....