Clarify the term "Drum Overheads"

JDOD said:
Gerg, you're obviously a misguided troll/fluffer.

We should direct straightup here:
*edited*
So that he can explain to you how to record drums properly.

:facepalm:
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No edit that out please. I don't want anything I've ever said to help this guy in any way.
 
Greg_L said:
No edit that out please. I don't want anything I've ever said to help this guy in any way.
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Fair point - I'm just quite surprised he called you a troll! When you've helped so many people to record both drums and guitars properly.
 
JDOD said:
Fair point - I'm just quite surprised he called you a troll! When you've helped so many people to record both drums and guitars properly.
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The guy has made 3 terrible posts. He doesn't know anything. How could he? He's just spouting off because that's what people do. I don't even care. If he wants to think Tad and Steen and me are trolls that don't have anything to do with music, so what? I know better about all three of us, he doesn't. Ignorance is bliss, he can stay fucking clueless, and I'll just keep on keeping on writing, recording, and playing live all the fucking time....like this saturday while I'm doing double-duty on guitar and drums with two bands to a packed venue and all proceeds are going to a local children's charity. Maybe, I'll think of this guy while doing my rockstar poses. Probably not.
 
miroslav said:
In the USA...we just call them fluff girls...though I guess there's also fluff boys for the other folk.
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Fluffer is the gender neutral term.


As far as overheads go, overheads always pick up the whole kit. You can decide during the mix to accentuate the cymbals and effectively make them cymbal mics, but that has nothing to do with what gets captured.
 
People who mic every drum don't necessarily use the overheads differently. A lot of times they are simply adding clarity and oomph to the sound of the drum in the overheads.

Since I tend to do a ton of really dense metal, I end up using the overheads as cymbal mics. But that is a mix choice. If the band decided to do a version of these songs with a sparse acoustic guitar arrangement, I would just change the eq of the overheads and turn down the spot mics to make it sound more appropriate for that mix.

Again, the mic technique doesn't change with the intention.
 
My experience is fairly narrow, but isn't it fair to say OH are more typically 'the whole kit' even if you do mic every drum?
That seems to be the source of the OP's split from the logic of it. If there are cymbal spot mics, that's a different thing.
Perhaps in live SR would you sometimes have close mics + cymbal spots sans a kit pair?
 
Greg_L, since this thread started you have made the most posts, that’s what trolls do, and yet you have offered nothing on topic whatsoever. And when I call you out on your BS, you act like all bullies do: can give it but can’t take it. So in response to my technical and thought out response you beat your chest and expound how great you are. Wow, nice work man. Your avatar is a middle finger, and your phrase touches upon a subject so raw, but hey, you’re that tough, you can handle it, and your signature is self promotion: gruff internet presence, nice job man. Quite frankly if people say you’ve helped them in the past, good for you, but as far as this thread goes your nothing but the portrait of a loudmouth bully that gratifies himself by demeaning others. And in fact, you will never admit that any post you made on this thread says nothing, not on topic or otherwise, except to be a pompous self interested jerk.

I am interested in how certain microphones work in certain applications. Have you ever recorded a drum kit? What mics did you use and how did you place and use the overheads? Did you track and then use computer programs to distort the signal so bad that the original microphone usage became moot? Or did you actually use a clean signal in for a bulk of the sound? Because I’m a fair level headed person, I ask for you to offer something on topic. Let’s see if the bully can actually grab the bull by horns, or if he’ll cringe with tail between the legs.

If your next post doesn’t include any information about drum recording, mics and the term overhead, then you are exposed as the troll pompous self interested jerk you are, at least on this thread anyways.
 
" I am interested in how certain microphones work in certain applications. "
Yes, but you can (could have) done that quite differently. and skipped the rest. Trust me, Take a breather, give it some time (and slack.
 
straightup said:
greg_l, since this thread started you have made the most posts, that’s what trolls do, and yet you have offered nothing on topic whatsoever. And when i call you out on your bs, you act like all bullies do: Can give it but can’t take it. So in response to my technical and thought out response you beat your chest and expound how great you are. Wow, nice work man. Your avatar is a middle finger, and your phrase touches upon a subject so raw, but hey, you’re that tough, you can handle it, and your signature is self promotion: Gruff internet presence, nice job man. Quite frankly if people say you’ve helped them in the past, good for you, but as far as this thread goes your nothing but the portrait of a loudmouth bully that gratifies himself by demeaning others. And in fact, you will never admit that any post you made on this thread says nothing, not on topic or otherwise, except to be a pompous self interested jerk.

I am interested in how certain microphones work in certain applications. Have you ever recorded a drum kit? What mics did you use and how did you place and use the overheads? Did you track and then use computer programs to distort the signal so bad that the original microphone usage became moot? Or did you actually use a clean signal in for a bulk of the sound? Because i’m a fair level headed person, i ask for you to offer something on topic. Let’s see if the bully can actually grab the bull by horns, or if he’ll cringe with tail between the legs.

If your next post doesn’t include any information about drum recording, mics and the term overhead, then you are exposed as the troll pompous self interested jerk you are, at least on this thread anyways.
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LOL. Well I'm not gonna detail every nuance of drum recording for you. Maybe if you ask nicely and stop being such a crybaby. You're not giving me much incentive to oblige your millions of requests.
 
straightup said:
Well, it’s clear that Greg_L, Tadpui and Steenamaroo are all useless trolls.
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[sarcasm]
Oh wow, called out!
You got me man. Greg and I, we're like a tag team. We just go around picking on people with super ideas.
[/sarcasm]

Seriously. Re-read your original post. It's ridiculous.
 
Steenamaroo said:
[sarcasm]
Oh wow, called out!
You got me man. Greg and I, we're like a tag team. We just go around picking on people with super ideas.
[/sarcasm]

Seriously. Re-read your original post. It's ridiculous.
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I'm not one to likes to pile on' - but (OP) check your 2nd post 15- on this forum.

All that happed prior IMO, is some folks responded with a combo of 'fun and 'WTF? What you ran into was some human nature.
Then, a stack of 'comments' to put it nicely- about how and what so and so are?
Really !
 
OK Greg_L, thank you for doing exactly what we all knew you’d do, cower. Let’s review, you’ve posted your disdain for this topic, and yes I think we all get it loud and clear, the guy who screams the loudest is always right.

You (14) and your cohort steenamaro (11) have posted 25 out of 57 posts to this writing, almost half of the posts. That my friends is proof of your trolling. Who does that, post that many times? And with a point of view that is negative nonsense, wastes time, and quite frankly is lame. I just wanted to say thank you for hijacking what really could be a great discussion, about primary versus secondary overhead drum mic techniques, and what mics work better in which applications and why, and in what setting, etc.

First I rebuffed you comically. Next, I was forced to rebuff you again but I added some more technical and meaningful information to the discussion, as an open minded person the original wording changed somewhat, I was doing what normal people do in a discussion. Third, I called you out and asked for you to grace us with your intelligence on topic, and you cowered. You see in your mind your disgust and disdain for the topic is the final answer, and you think the topic is over. OK, I can appreciate that, because that’s how bullies work. Your tepid brain doesn’t like not being the final answer. But so be it, the internet is ripe for this type of hollow activity.

I do thank you for your disgust and disdain for the discussion I was trying to create. Now that you and your cohort have clearly spelled out your disdain in pure troll fashion, making 25/57 posts on the thread, can I ask that you leave it alone now? You’ve made your narrow minded point of view very well known. We aren’t idiots, by post two we all got it, you’re a pompous self serving jerk. Great, good for you, can I ask politely that you go back to “the eye of satan’s butthole” and leave this thread alone? (I mean really, who takes this guy seriously?)

Now, if this troll and his pals will walk away, I’ll do further research on this site and find instances where people have written about overheads in a way that is less than helpful to the common knowledge base. But if good ol’ Greg_L can’t stimulate himself enough in the eye of satan’s butthole and continues to hijack this thread, well, perhaps I’ll find another forum. But the bully would win. A line is drawn in the sand. Oh the suspense.

I would like to continue the open minded side of the discussion by serious people. If you are into that sort of thing, please let us know what mics you use as overheads and how many tracks for the entire kit, etc. What worked, what mics you liked, what didn’t work, what mics you didn't like, what was the room set up, at home, in a studio, were you the engineer, were you a musician, etc. Would you classify your use of overheads as primary or secondary? Would this language help people better talk about and understand the term drum overheads?
 
Get worked up all you want but if you come on to a forum and, in your first post, ask people to change their terminology purely to suit you, do you really expect us all to line up and agree?
Do you not see how this is abnormal?

A gentle ribbing really is getting off lightly.
Not being insta-banned for post #15 is getting off REALLY lightly.

Conduct your research, have fun, make friends but man....be realistic.
 
straightup said:
My band records at home. Our mantra is capture the live sound of us playing with minimal or no effects. We are a trio: guitar, bass and drums. We invested in some decent mics, stands and an all in one "old school" early 2000's digital recorder that has 8 tracks-at-once-recording, and all sorts of other mixing functionality. We worked on a new batch of tunes for about a year, meeting once a month. "At home" for us technically means a comfortable A Frame high ceiling studio space built into the back of a two car garage. My friend uses it as his art studio the other 29 days a month. I did a ton of research on mics and even more on drum recording techniques. During the course of my research I read over and over again the term 'drum overheads'.

What I'd like people to do moving forward is when they talk about 'drum overheads' to clarify in which setting they use the term, by adding for "full kit" or for "cymbals only". So, I propose when discussing drum overheads we can use short code: OH-FK to mean "full kit" and OH-CY to mean "cymbals only".

Why is this important? Well, there's a lot of knowledgeable people out there that have a lot to offer, but each recording situation is different. My recording situation is I have 4 tracks to record the kit. That is it. So, I have to maximize the drum overhead mics, via placement, type, etc. To those that have the luxury of micing the kit with more than 4 tracks, I am very jealous and envious by the way, these folks use the drum overheads for cymbals only. Mics work differently in each capacity. Clarifying any discussion about how you use your mics would be very beneficial to all.

I ask all of us in the community to try to use this short code moving forward: OH-FK for full kit overheads and OH-CY for cymbals only overheads. Get into it! If you've ever made a post in the past, edit your post with these details, it will really help the knowledge base we are sharing and building.

To wit, our situation - Warning: gritty details ahead! We started using Rode M5 matched pair as overheads in the Glyn Johns set up. While they were great at getting all the drums, the hi hat and cymbals were just too harsh and overpowering. It was for two reasons: we had not put any sound padding up yet, and I had the inputs on the recorder too high. So, I swapped out the 1/2 inch diaphragm M5s for 1 inch diaphragm CAD GXL 3000s. They weren't a matched pair, but I got two and used them as such in cardioid pattern. We added padding to the ceiling and walls, and I lowered the inputs on the two channels, and BAM! we got great well rounded drum sounds and cymbal crashes were perfect, not overwhelming and not lost either. But, the one drawback: the toms were lost in the shuffle with GXL 3000s. Man those M5s really did pick them up nicely. But for the record we just made, the GXL 3000s worked well enough and with the kick and snare mic'd separately, we got a huge drum sound - which is the centerpiece of our full band sound.

I read a lot about the most recommended overhead mics out there: AKG C414, Neumann u87, Oktava MC-012, Audio Technica ATM450, Beyerdynamic MC930, Shure KSM141, etc. etc. etc. I just hope that moving forward people can clarify their recording situation when describing what mics they use.

OH-FK for full kit overheads and OH-CY for cymbals only overheads. Get into it! We will all benefit from the clarification.

Thanks everybody.
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straightup said:
The matinee response has been overwhelmingly underwhelming. The responders have outed themselves as closeminded fluffers that have nothing positive to add to a discussion. 99.9% of their posts are probably this lame fluff, complete with avatar pics and signatures that take up half a page. How’s the view from your parents basement? Is your peanut butter and jelly sandwich and milk tray ready from the first floor?

The question raised about the term drum overhead is valid.

Since you closeminded people can’t help fluffing yourselves on anonymous keyboards, the wasted space is piling up on this forum topic. To those that actually have something to say, and not glorifying behind the scenes fluff, your weeding through this nonsense is appreciated. I look forward to the evening show, perhaps these fluffers will be in bed by then complete with nighty night story, and the real discussion can begin.
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straightup said:
Well, it’s clear that Greg_L, Tadpui and Steenamaroo are all useless trolls. They have nothing to offer, except their incessant need to waste the precious space of this and probably other forums. You are all so useless it took Bubba po to explain the fluffer joke before you got it. Dudes, why don’t just Skype each other and you can be snarky face to face.

I would like to thank bouldersoundguy, Miroslav, heatmiser and mixsit for bringing something to the table. They point out that OH-CY or cymbals only may not be the best way to explain the concept I was trying to explain, which is, those that track the overheads as “glue” as heatmiser puts it, not necessarily having to get the drums and cymbals together as the main sound. Those that put mics on every drum and then have overheads use the overheads differently from those that don’t mic every drum.

Obviously it’s inherent with overheads the full kit will be recorded. But the technicality is primary source versus secondary source.

So, if a kit has a mic on the kick drum, mic on top of the snare, mic below the snare, mic on the rack tom, mic on the floor tom, mic on the hi hat, and then two overhead mics – these overhead mics are doing something different for the recording than a set up that has a mic on the kick drum, a mic on the snare and two overheads. You see that difference? That is all I’m trying to point out. Any two mics can be put over a kit when all the other drums are mic’d, because they are secondary.

Sure, asking people to rethink a post they made ten years ago might be preposterous, but let me tell you something, these forums are a great place for information. I read them for exact purposes. It’s a shame the fluffers exist out there that troll these forums and waste a lot of space and time for serious people trying to achieve something. So, in an effort to make the information in these forums as useful as possible, I didn’t think it was too much to ask people to rethink how they wrote about overhead mics in the past. The technical use of them for primary source versus secondary source is a valid technical difference.

So if someone has sweet Fatheads with Lundahl transformers, and they are used for overheads where all the other drums are mic’d, this is different from someone using Rode M5s as overheads with no other drum mic’d except kick and snare. I guess the idea of using short code for the technicality was a stretch but at least it was an attempt at a simple way to show the difference. In lieu of OH-FK and OH-CY, I’d probably switch it to OH-PRI and OH-SEC, for overhead primary source and overhead secondary source. Now, surely the fluffers out there whose brains can’t fathom new ideas this might be difficult, but hey that’s fine. This forum was supposed to be about just that: a new idea, a different way of talking, writing about an old idea.

Also, I understand one might point out that even in the secondary overhead format they are being used as the primary drum sound source. Yes, but if all other drums are mic’d, that gives the engineer options that aren’t available to those without all other drums mic’d. As an example, how does Oktava MK-012 work as secondary versus primary? It’s a valid question for all the rave reviews people give those mics at that price point.

And furthermore, overthinking and overdoing the mix down isn’t in my bag. I don’t have or use plug ins, DIs, preamps, etc. Track the main source as best as possible and limited to no EQ is how we do it. If someone has a highly regarded set of mics like the MK-012 and uses them as overheads, but then totally compresses and whatever else to them, does that really explain how the mics really sound when used cleanly? There are so many one line posts to these threads it’s ridiculous, as people don’t give the full extent to the idea they are trying to convey. Details people, not one liners.

This experience has been fascinating. I’m beginning to think the trolls don’t even record or use varying equipment, heck if they even play music at all. They just sit back and read every damn post and their goal is to attack negatively instead of bringing something positive or worthwhile to the table. Because in a sad way, their minds get gratification for being negative. It’s a pity our forums have to deal with this nonsense.

But for those of us out there that take this stuff very seriously, I thank you for your comments not only in this thread but across the forums. Serious people read this stuff looking for real answers, not idiot fluff.
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straightup said:
Greg_L, since this thread started you have made the most posts, that’s what trolls do, and yet you have offered nothing on topic whatsoever. And when I call you out on your BS, you act like all bullies do: can give it but can’t take it. So in response to my technical and thought out response you beat your chest and expound how great you are. Wow, nice work man. Your avatar is a middle finger, and your phrase touches upon a subject so raw, but hey, you’re that tough, you can handle it, and your signature is self promotion: gruff internet presence, nice job man. Quite frankly if people say you’ve helped them in the past, good for you, but as far as this thread goes your nothing but the portrait of a loudmouth bully that gratifies himself by demeaning others. And in fact, you will never admit that any post you made on this thread says nothing, not on topic or otherwise, except to be a pompous self interested jerk.

I am interested in how certain microphones work in certain applications. Have you ever recorded a drum kit? What mics did you use and how did you place and use the overheads? Did you track and then use computer programs to distort the signal so bad that the original microphone usage became moot? Or did you actually use a clean signal in for a bulk of the sound? Because I’m a fair level headed person, I ask for you to offer something on topic. Let’s see if the bully can actually grab the bull by horns, or if he’ll cringe with tail between the legs.

If your next post doesn’t include any information about drum recording, mics and the term overhead, then you are exposed as the troll pompous self interested jerk you are, at least on this thread anyways.
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straightup said:
OK Greg_L, thank you for doing exactly what we all knew you’d do, cower. Let’s review, you’ve posted your disdain for this topic, and yes I think we all get it loud and clear, the guy who screams the loudest is always right.

You (14) and your cohort steenamaro (11) have posted 25 out of 57 posts to this writing, almost half of the posts. That my friends is proof of your trolling. Who does that, post that many times? And with a point of view that is negative nonsense, wastes time, and quite frankly is lame. I just wanted to say thank you for hijacking what really could be a great discussion, about primary versus secondary overhead drum mic techniques, and what mics work better in which applications and why, and in what setting, etc.

First I rebuffed you comically. Next, I was forced to rebuff you again but I added some more technical and meaningful information to the discussion, as an open minded person the original wording changed somewhat, I was doing what normal people do in a discussion. Third, I called you out and asked for you to grace us with your intelligence on topic, and you cowered. You see in your mind your disgust and disdain for the topic is the final answer, and you think the topic is over. OK, I can appreciate that, because that’s how bullies work. Your tepid brain doesn’t like not being the final answer. But so be it, the internet is ripe for this type of hollow activity.

I do thank you for your disgust and disdain for the discussion I was trying to create. Now that you and your cohort have clearly spelled out your disdain in pure troll fashion, making 25/57 posts on the thread, can I ask that you leave it alone now? You’ve made your narrow minded point of view very well known. We aren’t idiots, by post two we all got it, you’re a pompous self serving jerk. Great, good for you, can I ask politely that you go back to “the eye of satan’s butthole” and leave this thread alone? (I mean really, who takes this guy seriously?)

Now, if this troll and his pals will walk away, I’ll do further research on this site and find instances where people have written about overheads in a way that is less than helpful to the common knowledge base. But if good ol’ Greg_L can’t stimulate himself enough in the eye of satan’s butthole and continues to hijack this thread, well, perhaps I’ll find another forum. But the bully would win. A line is drawn in the sand. Oh the suspense.

I would like to continue the open minded side of the discussion by serious people. If you are into that sort of thing, please let us know what mics you use as overheads and how many tracks for the entire kit, etc. What worked, what mics you liked, what didn’t work, what mics you didn't like, what was the room set up, at home, in a studio, were you the engineer, were you a musician, etc. Would you classify your use of overheads as primary or secondary? Would this language help people better talk about and understand the term drum overheads?
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MrUserNameIV?
 
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