From USB Condensor Mic to Non-USB "Phantom and the like".

Z

Zerowalker

New member
So basically i want to upgrade my setup from my current USB Mic which works quite well, C03U.
However there are limitations, and the one i am most disturbed at is the 16bit mixing.

Now 16bit itself is no problem, i mean the end result of music can be 16bit and it will be fine.
However as you may know, when mixing occurs, 16bit is to low and rounding errors will build up, which adds noise.
And that's what i hear, Very Clearly (though quite low, but it's kinda frustrating as it's always there even if the mic is muted).


So, as i got a Sound Blaster ZxR, i thought i should be able to use a similar Mic but instead let my Sound Card handle the processing.
However it's not that simple from what i read.

You need a Mic of course, but also a Pre Amp to make the Mic "line in" level if i understand things correctly.
And depending on Mic it may or may not need Phantom power (i don't really understand this concept, why does some use it and some not?).


So i would like recommendations and discussion about this, to learn more and in the end be able to buy something better.

Now i am Not looking for Studio Super Pro x10. I pretty much want similar quality as this, but without the USB limitation.
So i can use my Sound Card and any feature ones and let that be the decider for Quality (in terms of Digitalizing the audio).


Many Thanks!
 
Hi Z and welcome.

Re 16 bits. It is not the "lack of bits" that is the noise problem, more the fact that cheap, 16 bit only systems tend to have high intrinsic analogue noise. Good quality 16 bit gear such as my Allen & Heath ZED 10 mixer, will have a noise floor around the theoretical limit for CD and I am very unlikely to find a venue quiet enough for noise to matter!

But yes, 24 bits is better if only because you get so much more "legroom" and can confidently record at -18, even -20dBFS and have a noise floor dictated by the analogue systems.
BTW! speaking of "noise floors"? I do not believe that SB BS about a 124dB signal to noise ratio. Yes, they might get that figure with some clever "weighting" and massaging but there are VERY few AIs that get close to that figure, Prism is one, and they ALL cost way more than $250 or so!

The SB card probably does deliver very high sound quality but in almost all other respects it is not suitable for "home studio" recording work. I would expect the latency to be poor despite the ASIO drivers and (my personal bête noir!) it lacks MIDI which you might well find useful in the future.

So, so sorry but. Ditch, sell or put in another PC the S(of a!) B card and buy an interface and a plain XLR connected microphone. "But which ones??" You cry? Ah! Biggy! lot of choice. My suggestions in advancing price up to nearly £200....

Steinberg UR22 £100~ 2 mic/line.instru+MIDI
Focustite Scarlet 2i4 £130~ as above
Native Instruments KA6 £180~ 2mic/line/instru +2 line ins+MIDI+S/PDIF. 4 balanced outs, other two just 2 bal outs.

Mics? If you like the basic "tone" of the Samson get the XLR equive'. Otherwise there are really no "bad" mics around. I tend to favour SDCs as good all round workhorses.

Study the stickies!

Dave.
 
Ah much information here.

That may indeed be the case here, i doubt the circuit is high quality and has below 16bit DB of noise.
But i find it weird that i get that noise no matter what. If i listen to the Mic when it's muted, it's still there.

I think it's quantization error, or bad communication with the Sound Device etc. As i have never had such issues before with any USB sound device.

As for the 124db thing, i don't really care much about that, As long as it's very good quality compared to Motherboard inbuilt, i am happy.

I don't need any MIDI instrument things, as the only thing i want is pretty much a Mic, i am not doing Studio Grade things in itself.
I just want to have a neat setup that can record without some weird bottleneck.

So what are my options then?

Isn't it, Mic -> Pre Amp -> Sound Card?

I am thinking either RCA Stereo or Mic (with disabled Mic Boost, as i guess that makes it act a a Line in?).

Thanks
 
Very few USB mics use devices capable of good noise figures. It's simply not what they are designed for. The same mic but with the usual xlr output and even a modest interface will be so much better, if you are look for noise performance. The differences between 16, 24 and higher sampling is subtle, and on voice perhaps even arguable. The range available with 16 bit sampling is perfectly good enough. I record at 24 now simply because the latest version of my software defaulted to it and I didn't even notice!
 
Well then that's even more of a reason to upgrade.

I myself am not a fan of using 16bit, but that's only when it's used for Mixing, i am not sure how Recording works. But i now for example, if i resample at 16bit (Meaning the entire work is being done in 16bit), i can clearly hear noise at the end result.

I can also hear noise from Windows if i set my device to 16bit. So the noise floor is something i kinda care about in these cases.
But for the end file after all mixing or whatever you do is done, 16bit is more than enough, as the noise floor then (as all the errors are far far below that as they were made in higher depth) will be the Sound itself rather than quantization errors.

Oh, and xlr, care to explain that?
From my understanding, isn't it like RCA but with some extra feature (Grounding or what it was?).
 
"So what are my options then?

Isn't it, Mic -> Pre Amp -> Sound Card?"

I am thinking either RCA Stereo or Mic (with disabled Mic Boost, as i guess that makes it act a a Line in?)."

Ok, my apologies. In your PARTICULAR case an AI is probably an overkill and you could use the soundcard. But I do not suggest a pre amp, why?

Whilst there are some good, low priced pre amps about they are still not IMHO very good value for money nor very flexible for home recording in the absence of other kit (such as an AI! Or monitor controller) No, what you need I think is a good quality small mixer.

I can personally recommend the Allen&Heath ZED10 which Thomann sell at E185 £148 but there are good offerings from Soundcraft and Yamaha. In truth, if you picked up a Behringer Xenyx 802 for about 40quid it would probably satisfy!

Not only will a mixer* give you good, quiet, phantom powered mic amps but also a controllable playback path plus the ability to connect other sources, FX should the mood take you!
FWIIW This has been "our" set up almost from day one...Mixer, was Berry now A&H, into an M-A2496 soundcard (they, mind you, DO have MIDI and excellently low latency!)

*An unfortunate name I always think in this context? The home recordist is rarely "mixing" anything with such a hardware mixer. The device is really just a collection of mic and line amplifiers plus some signal routing and monitoring facilities.

Ooops! Sorry! Yes! XLR, this is an industry standard connector mainly found in mic circuits but also on "pro" gear for line ins and outs.
For these duties the 3 pole connector is used and is wired thus...
Pin 1 ground/earth shield (and in normal practice NOT connected to the metal shell)
Pin 2 "Hot" that is the actual signal and for a microphone source NOT referenced to pin 1 but to...
Pin 3 "cold" but for a mic (and often other circuits) just as much a "signal" as pin 2.

XLR circuits are almost always "balanced" and this confers great hum and noise immunity on the circuits, in fact and in practice, mic circuits would be useless for all but very short runs unless they WERE balanced.

Dave.
 
Do i really need a Mixer?

Looked at those you recommended, and they are huge and contain like 99% functions i won't even use.
The only thing i want is a Microphone going into my Sound Card pretty much. Mixer seems like if you are doing some vocal stuff with instruments and the like?

You say later that it's pretty much an amplifier with some fancy stuff. But shouldn't it be more worth to buy a single amplifier then, rather than a huge kit, as i only have and use 1 mic?

Thanks, great information here:)
 
Zerowalker said:
Do i really need a Mixer?

Looked at those you recommended, and they are huge and contain like 99% functions i won't even use.
The only thing i want is a Microphone going into my Sound Card pretty much. Mixer seems like if you are doing some vocal stuff with instruments and the like?

You say later that it's pretty much an amplifier with some fancy stuff. But shouldn't it be more worth to buy a single amplifier then, rather than a huge kit, as i only have and use 1 mic?

Thanks, great information here:)
Click to expand...

Well, ok, the ZED has a fair footprint but I wouldn't call it "huge"!

Thing is Zed', peeps buy a cheap mic pre and even if it does give them a clean, low noise input signal, they forget about the bit coming out of the card!

How do you listen to your creations? On speakers or headphones? Whichever, you need some form of level control and a mixer gives you that, a pre amp doesn't.

Then, even a modest mixer such as the X802* gives you facilities hardly ever found on mic pres, certainly not sub $100...
Pan: The ability to "place" your voice anywhere in the stereo landscape (a pre amp just gives you left or right tho' software MIGHT help)

EQ: Not usually a good idea "going in" but almost always good to roll off the bass a bit (A&H has "proper" HPFilters!) .

Latency free monitoring...Actually COMPUTER free monitoring!

*Do not..PLEEEZE do not cheap out on the single mic input mixers!!

Dave.
 
Okay Huge was a bit exaggerating;P

But thing is, i pretty much only use my Mic for certain recordings, which can be for example, Gaming and podcast kind of scenarios.

So i don't really Listen to it in the term of Monitoring.

So i have a hard time seeing how a Mixer in this case would really be a benefit, as i wouldn't be able to use the Monitoring as i would use the Headphones for other sound in the meantime.
And i would do any kind of effect, and if i wanted i would do it in software later, as it wouldn't be a realtime thing anyway.

I don't of course want to cheap out. I want to get something that can stick. But not something that's overkill.
 
I'll disagree with Dave, and tell you to forget the SB card and separate mic preamp, get a dedicated audio interface like the ones he first suggested (ie Steinberg, etc). It'll serve you much better in the long run and any inexpensive preamp you get (under $100 is not likely to be great quality and have some inherent noise.
 
Damn, didn't think it would be such a huge deal to get something better with as it's such a simple task.
Can't really put that much in my PC as all spots are pretty much take (PCI).

The path gets longer and harder for each post;(
 
Zerowalker said:
Okay Huge was a bit exaggerating;P

But thing is, i pretty much only use my Mic for certain recordings, which can be for example, Gaming and podcast kind of scenarios.

So i don't really Listen to it in the term of Monitoring.

So i have a hard time seeing how a Mixer in this case would really be a benefit, as i wouldn't be able to use the Monitoring as i would use the Headphones for other sound in the meantime.
And i would do any kind of effect, and if i wanted i would do it in software later, as it wouldn't be a realtime thing anyway.

I don't of course want to cheap out. I want to get something that can stick. But not something that's overkill.
Click to expand...

Ok, well nothing is perfect in this world! We have to buy a lot of redundant ***t. I bet you don't use 5% of your computer software's capability! Your phone can probably do sixty things before breakfast you will never know about.

Re monitoring: You must freakin' listen to something? Just makes abundant sense to route the soundcard back to the mixer returns and have everything under close, analogue control. Or am I imposing my strange paradigm on the rest of the world?

As for "software" effects? The control of low frequencies, LF thumps, traffic and dark brown voices, needs to be done at source and in real time for poddling. SO much "toob" stuff sound like a 1980s disco caller (100watts thru 15" bins!).

Still! Have the question of panning? Do you put your voice left or right? (if the podding software sorts this, forget I asked!).

Mike. "I" don't agree with me! Yes! He should chuck the lot and start afresh with ur22 or similar but he DOES have a pretty good soundcard, if not by our lights. Just trying to get him next best bang for buck.

"Can't really put that much in my PC as all spots are pretty much take (PCI)."

Err?^ You don't need anything else inside the PC!

Dave.
 
Last edited:
ecc83 said:
Ok, well nothing is perfect in this world! We have to buy a lot of redundant ***t. I bet you don't use 5% of your computer software's capability! Your phone can probably do sixty things before breakfast you will never know about.

Re monitoring: You must freakin' listen to something? Just makes abundant sense to route the soundcard back to the mixer returns and have everything under close, analogue control. Or am I imposing my strange paradigm on the rest of the world?

As for "software" effects? The control of low frequencies, LF thumps, traffic and dark brown voices, needs to be done at source and in real time for poddling. SO much "toob" stuff sound like a 1980s disco caller (100watts thru 15" bins!).

Still! Have the question of panning? Do you put your voice left or right? (if the podding software sorts this, forget I asked!).

Mike. "I" don't agree with me! Yes! He should chuck the lot and start afresh with ur22 or similar but he DOES have a pretty good soundcard, if not by our lights. Just trying to get him next best bang for buck.

"Can't really put that much in my PC as all spots are pretty much take (PCI)."

Err?^ You don't need anything else inside the PC!

Dave.
Click to expand...

True, can't deny it in that sense.

Not sure what you mean.
I am recording while doing something. Let's say for example, i record while i am playing.
I can't (i think?) Monitor my own voice while playing. It's not like i am singing or doing stuff where i need to make sure i have my voice done correctly, think i guess is the most normal use for this.

Not sure what you mean with effects and all that and paning.
I will simply have my voice "centered". Simple Mono, and add that to, well some recording that's done Live anyway.
I don't really do anything with the Voice recording itself, i simply want the Voice(or rather recording signal) to be as "pure" as possible.

Err?^ You don't need anything else inside the PC!
Click to expand...

This is what makes me think my usage is misunderstood;P
I am not in anyway using the PC for Vocal recordings in that sense.
Or wanting to have a PC just for the use of Vocal recording.

I use my PC for, well anything a PC can do. And Recording my voice is one of those things, and i simply want a clean input signal from a good mic.


arcaxis:

Ah as i read before, XLR and 3.5mm (and similar) are interchangable. It's just that one is balanced and the other isn't (no idea what that means though).

The sample however sounds crap really, not sure how to judge it.
Sounds like some super high Noise filtering is active along with compression artifacts.
Thanks:)!
 
It sounds nowhere near that when i record anything;S
That must have been processed by software, it's no way it can make that "noise filtered" sound without that.
Sounds like it went through Skype and back:P
 
Right!!
Please varder the hastily scribbled diagram I have attached!

The top pic' shows how a mixer would connect into the PC, more specifically into the line inputs of the SB card (I do not know if they are RCAs or a stereo jack?) .

Note that the microphone signal passes thru the mixer channel and could therefore be influenced..IF YOU SO WISH! By the EQ controls. You generally get bass, mid and treble and it is often a good idea to roll off most of the bass frequencies as this allows you to get closer to the mic and therefore reduces the pickup of extraneous noises.

All the while you can listen to self (again, purely YOUR decision!) on the headphones.

Bottom picture shows the replay path. Anything making sounds* in the PC can be heard here and the signals controlled by a pot on the mixer. Also shown are feeds to a possible set of monitor speakers (or could be a hi fi amp) and all decent mixers give you independent control of cans and speaker volumes.

In practice of course the input and output cables would both be in place all the time. Just trying to K.I.S.Sir.

Note too that although the mic feeds only ONE channel, there are TWO feeds to the card? This is why I mention "panning" but if you do get a mixer all will become very clear.

Now, once again...ALL THIS could be done ('cept pan and EQ!) using a modest AI but that would render the SB card redundant.

*If you have not already done so, kill all the Windows bleeps and bloops.
 

Attachments

  • oh! ffs.pdf
    133.3 KB · Views: 4
Let's be blunt. The Soundblaster is a gamer's card and, whatever claims it may make, it totally unsuitable for any serious recording. The lack of XLR inputs or phantom power might have been a clue.

For me a HUGE deal break on all Soundblaster products is that they work natively only at 48kHz sampling--they may let you set it to other figures but it achieves these by an internal sample rate conversion with all the attendant issues.

Write the SB off as a mistake (and sell it to some unsuspecting sucker on fleabay) and get a proper audio interface.
 
ecc83, wait if i understand things correctly.

You mean i have the Mic -> Mixer -> SoundCard -> Mixer -> Headphones?
Meaning i will Always use the Mixer, it would be like using a Head Amp, it's always connected and just sits there and does it's thing?


For me a HUGE deal break on all Soundblaster products is that they work natively only at 48kHz sampling--they may let you set it to other figures but it achieves these by an internal sample rate conversion with all the attendant issues.
Click to expand...

Wait is that still the case!?
Are you sure??

I know older cards had that thing, and it was clearly had negative impact. But i was pretty sure that had been "solved" now.
 
Zerowalker said:
ecc83, wait if i understand things correctly.

You mean i have the Mic -> Mixer -> SoundCard -> Mixer -> Headphones?
Meaning i will Always use the Mixer, it would be like using a Head Amp, it's always connected and just sits there and does it's thing?




Wait is that still the case!?
Are you sure??

I know older cards had that thing, and it was clearly had negative impact. But i was pretty sure that had been "solved" now.
Click to expand...

Yes! The mixer becomes part of the "system" and gives the very useful function of a monitor volume control for ALL the sounds coming from the PC.

I don't know about the SB card and will always bow to Bobbsy (one of the top guys here!). My experience of the cards ended in pre PCI, 3.1 days!

I do know that the combination of a good card and good mixer can give excellent results but this may not be the case here.
Dave.
 
Zerowalker said:
Wait is that still the case!?
Are you sure??

I know older cards had that thing, and it was clearly had negative impact. But i was pretty sure that had been "solved" now.
Click to expand...

I'm active on the support forums for the audio software I use and we've have at least two complaints about this for the ZxR. I obviously don't have one to check (and Creative have never been honest about this in their specs) but certainly the info I have indicates this is still the case.

Indeed, on earlier drivers, the internal conversion to 44.1 was faulty (again according to a user report) but this (at least) was fixed by newer drivers.

Whatever the case, Sound Blaster cards (despite all the glossy bragging on their site) are not designed for any sort of serious audio work.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top