Zero Headroom In The Box?!

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bileshake

bileshake

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I'm using Cubase 5.2 VST on a Mac with a Delta 1010lt card with some decent monitors. I've been at it for a couple years, now I have learned alot about getting a better signal and whatever. My mixes end up with way less headroom than everything "redbook" I compare it to. I'm recording at 24bit/48hrz and it doesn't seem to help. 32bit "truetape" mode in that setup works better but my mac is older and can't run like that for a whole project.
Is it my I/O, aincient software, or the fact that I'm relying on a DAW to accomplish high end results?
I'm thinking of starting to purchase an HD24 and stay away from DAW's as much as possible.
Oh yeah, another thought is the VST effects, maybe they're dithering the signal and making it sound crappier?

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
It sounds like maybe you might be recording into Cubase a bit too hot. At 24bit you have more than enough dynamic range to bring your tracks in colder than you might think at first blush.

If you have your levels set properly going into and out of your Delta 1010, you should be able to have the input mixer faders in Cubase set to unity gain and be bringing each track into Cubase at an average level somewhere in the mid -teens on your Cubase meters and still have great sound with plenty of headroom.

G.
 
I wonder what you are really talking about here......Are you saying that your mixes hit 0.0 dbfs more often than other CDs you compare to? Or are you talking about the sound quality?
In a sense, I guess you do have zero headroom in the box. But you have zero headroom anytime you are recording digitally, DAW or not. "Zero" is your ceiling; there is no headroom.

One place you may be at a lack of headroom is your microphone preamp. If you are hooking a mic directly to the 1010's mic input, that would be a good place to search out improvement.
 
I'm talking about the sound of the finished mix, not ones and zeros. I'm working with heavy rock, buy the time your done giving everything it's own individual space and strength in the mix there doesn't seem to be anything left. One thing I think might contribute to this is the final mixdown file in cubase is always very quiet and takes alot of work to get your mix to stand up to current CD volumes. I guess this maximizing and final comp could be squeezing the air out of my mix. I don't know.
 
Yeah, I don't think we are going to be able to help you with out hearing some stuff or being in the room when you are recording and mixing. But your DAW would be one of the last things I would point a finger at.....
 
Yea, headroom is the space between your highest audio peak and the highest signal level your equipment can take before distorting.

From your second description, it sounds like a mastering problem. Mixes are supposed to be quiet. The compression and limiting in the mastering stage brings up the volume, but you really have to understand how to use it or you will just destroy the sound.

Most of the commercial CDs in your collection were done on a DAW (assuming most of your CDs are from the last 10 years) The DAW isn't the problem.
 
Ok, a strong vocal part makes it harder to decern what the snare is doing. Guitar parts carved into different freq. and stereo space still fight for space in the mix. That's the kind of "headroom" I'm talking about, not the math, the audio. If no one here has had to deal with this before maybe I'm from mars.
 
if you are tracking at 24 bit, there is no need to have peaks over -15 or -10...

try backing off the levels...leave yourself plenty of room.
 
bileshake said:
Ok, a strong vocal part makes it harder to decern what the snare is doing. Guitar parts carved into different freq. and stereo space still fight for space in the mix. That's the kind of "headroom" I'm talking about, not the math, the audio. If no one here has had to deal with this before maybe I'm from mars.
Click to expand...
We're getting confused I think because what you describe in this post is not directly related to "headroom" in the technical sense. It sounds like - based upon this new post - you're having trouble actually mixing tracks and building a solid mix, which is something entirely different (and yes, just as common.)

For something like that it's hard to give specific answers without hearing a sample of the mix, but in general:

- If you are using the same kind of mic for all or a lot of the tracks, try mixing up your mic selection so that you're mixing up your coloration. Same thing with preamps, if available.

- Use pan to seperate tracks of competing spectral response. If the cymbals and the vocals are clashing, push the cymblas a bit right and the vocals a bit left, etc.

- If only parts of a track are getting buried under the mix, they might need a little compression (depending upon the type of track it is) to tighten up the track volume so that it all stays above the surface.

- It sounds like you're already using differential EQing, keep going with that.

Those are just general starters if your problem is indeed a crowded mix.

G.
 
To add to Glens post, another problem might be how you are choosing your sounds.

If you solo all your instruments individually and try to get each one sounding as big and full as possible, you will run out of room in your mix quickly.

People naturally have a 'sound' that they are drawn to, an eq curve that is pleasing to that person. On big mistake that I see a lot is when people try to get the same sound out of all the instruments. They make the bass and the guitar and the vocal have the same sonic signature, so naturally, they stomp all over each other.
 
ok

Had the same problem for years, and got much better at mixing and still, once in a while i found myself really frustrated.
One day I just attacked the problem and started searching for the reason for this.
Tried everything, and I mean EVERYTHING!

Then I got to the point of trying other DAW's, that was it!
I learned to look for and find the differences in sound between different programs,
like the differences between plugins.

I'm on a Mac Pro.
Cubase is my main DAW and for me it's the best for the creating process.
Logic is also nice for creating but sounds a bit blurry, maybe Tape like...
When I finally moved my mixes to Protools 9 HD I found that commercial, open, clean, punchy and "professional" sound.
My mixes got much better over night and it takes me half of the time to get a great mix.
Also I recommend you to try a console emulation.
I usually work with VCC but lately I'm trying Protools HEAT, both of them are amazing.
And last but not least, don't use the Mixdown option on any DAW, just learn how to internal Sum your mix into a stereo audio track in both cases, mixing and mastering.
In Protools, after internal sum your mastering project to a stereo track, choose the audio region and "Command+Shift+K"
will open an Export Window, that is where you export the L and R channels and turn them into an interleaved stereo file without actually bounce it, to me it preserves the sonic quality of the recording.
Good Luck
 
You win the Necro-post of the Week award! This question is only 6 years old, so you will have to dig deeper to get the yearly prize.

Good luck!
 
finished mixes (pro) = MASTERED.

home finished mixes = just a mix, hasn't been mastered yet.

read this:

Honor Roll


discuss.
 
evik said:
Had the same problem for years, and got much better at mixing and still, once in a while i found myself really frustrated.
One day I just attacked the problem and started searching for the reason for this.
Tried everything, and I mean EVERYTHING!

Then I got to the point of trying other DAW's, that was it!
I learned to look for and find the differences in sound between different programs,
like the differences between plugins.

I'm on a Mac Pro.
Cubase is my main DAW and for me it's the best for the creating process.
Logic is also nice for creating but sounds a bit blurry, maybe Tape like...
When I finally moved my mixes to Protools 9 HD I found that commercial, open, clean, punchy and "professional" sound.
My mixes got much better over night and it takes me half of the time to get a great mix.
Also I recommend you to try a console emulation.
I usually work with VCC but lately I'm trying Protools HEAT, both of them are amazing.
And last but not least, don't use the Mixdown option on any DAW, just learn how to internal Sum your mix into a stereo audio track in both cases, mixing and mastering.
In Protools, after internal sum your mastering project to a stereo track, choose the audio region and "Command+Shift+K"
will open an Export Window, that is where you export the L and R channels and turn them into an interleaved stereo file without actually bounce it, to me it preserves the sonic quality of the recording.
Good Luck
Click to expand...


I really don't think that changing your DAW is a magic bullet for changing the quality of your mixes. Many great mixes are created using Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Samplitude etc. Different DAWs have different strenghts, but all are capable of producing great results if you use them properly. The importance of using SENSIBLE GAIN STAGING can't be over-emphasised. Knowing how to use sub groups efficiently, and understanding use of compression to get punchy rather than smeared results are also important ingredients. These things followed by expert mastering of your stereo mix are more important than changing software to my mind.
 
Yyyeah. I'm gonna have to go ahead and call bullshit on that one.

This is the forest for the trees issue once again. Give me your "crappiest" DAW and I'll be able to get good results on it, I guarantee you. I'll even bet you my bottom dollar. It's just another platform.

I find it funny that people think that it's the actually hardware and software that make the big difference and if they move over to an HD24 hardware recorder or something else the results will magically change for the better. The only thing that will really change is your mindset because the workflow has changed. What is a digital hardware recorder anyway? It's a box with proprietary software (the DAW) that runs digital converters to capture multi-track audio to a hard disk. Not much different from any typical computer-based DAW setup except that it's all contained in one box.

It's what you put in, the choices you made, and the tools you used to get there. Ones and zeros in a software program have nothing to do with it and if they do, it's negligible.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
Yyyeah. I'm gonna have to go ahead and call bullshit on that one...... It's just another platform.
Click to expand...
Agreed 1000%. They just host your files. One does not "sound better" than the other.

Placebo effect anyone?
 
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