Yo bassplayers. Help me out.

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Roel

Roel

That SMART guy.
Our bassplayer is a total beginner (about half a year), but he's got the feel, so we keep him. Altough he does have some though times playing together with musicians that play over 10 years.

But we's got a little problem. I wrote a cheezy jazzy kinda moviescore -kinda-dude-enters-his-hotelroom-after-walking-home-in-the-rain-and-doesn't-know-what-is-gonna-happen-but-he-kinda-feels-blue-and-his-sole-friend-now-is-his-whisky-but-well-that's-ok- kinda tune.

I really don't know what bassline to put under it. Our bassplayer got a tough time to figure it out too. Here's the chords:
Fm | Fm | Bbm7 | Edim
Fm | DbM7 | Bbm7 | C7

The problem really is the Edim. You kindof expect a C7 there, so he tends to play a C, but this clashes with the Db in the theme (on sax, which forces me to add a few notes and go to for ex Bb).

So, what would you play? Keep it basic, just 1 or 2 notes over each chord. Don't want to spoil the mood...
 
I'd personally find that impossible without hearing or seeing the score for the sax, ...is there a download ?

Nathan
 
The song is really new. Haven't recorded it yet. Have a score, but I can't put it into any digital format here... sigh...
 
is it a walking bass line?

can you tell what note would you play in the sax if you had to play just one note per chord?

For example, in bar 4 you're playing the Dominant 7h on it, right?

I don't have my bass here, but here's my guess. Assuming 2 notes per chord, he can go I-V in the Bbm7, and on the next two you can go the oppositem that is V-I.

So it'll be:

(1) Bbm7: Bb-F
(2) Edim: E - Bb (Db on the sax, it's a min third away from the E)
(3) Fm: C - F

So you're passing from 1 to 2 in a downard chromatic note, and from 2 to 3 in an upward diatonic note (I think it's called that way).

It will depend on your melody and on what is he playing before and after.

AND THIS, MY FRIEND, MAKES ME A SENIOR MEMBER. WHAT ABOUT THAT, EH?

Hope it helps, cheers Andrés
 
The Edim is spelled E-G-Bb-Db and any of these notes will work. Pick one (or several) thet will support the melody and sort-of lead to the next chord, in this case back to the Fm chord. Be sure that
the rhythm he plays keeps the flow going. Shouldn't have to practice it more than a few minutes. If he can't nail it after a few minutes, start looking for a B.P. who can. A lame B.P. will make the best band sound like doggie-doo.
chazba
 
Thanks andres... I think I like that idea...

The notes I play are (simplified to 1 note/measure and transposed):
C | C | Db | Db
C | C | Ab | G

Chazba: he's not really lame. He really got the feeling. The diminished chord is just not what you expect there. And since our guitarplayer wasn't there at that rehearsel (just sax, bass, drums), it was pretty hard for him. He never heard the progression. We'll hammer it in with me on keys I guess... Oh, and he cannot read chordprogressions yet.

It's not that easy to find a good bassplayer. I know many, but just a few can read chord progressions, most of em play metal or hardcore and copy whatever the guitarplayer plays. And if they play on their own, they forget to play bass and just play solo-kinda-stuff all the way. :rolleyes: Rather have a beginner with feeling that I can 'teach' during the rehearsels.

If I have an idea of what to do, I tell him, and he uses it as a starting point to get an idea of what he can play. But I really didn't have a good idea here...
 
I know what you mean about teaching them your way. I trained my personal bass player 20 years ago and now he's too busy gigging to work with me anymore!!!
chazba
 
You might try changing E dim to Bb dim since it is pretty much the same chord. Otherwise, |Bb Bb F F|E E Bb E|F

good luck
 
Yeah, it is the same chord. But it's not in another way.

You got to look at the chordsymbols as a functional thing. The Edim would be the VII chord of Fm, that's why it's written that way... It's kinda basic, here's the functional meaning of the chords:
I | I | IV | VII
I | VI | IV | V

And just playing a Bb over the 2 chords isn't that interesting either. So I'm not gonna make it easy for him. :D
 
Actually, I pretty much figured it out by now. With the help of andres. The guys in the band like it, but think it's to hard to play. It's ok if you can read music, but not if you can't. They WILL play it. Damn sissies. Puh.:rolleyes:
 
Roel....First off....It's a nice sounding progression...good strong cadences.......I know you understand the low down now.....but I figured I'd toss this out there...........

I used to write with a lot of diminished chords and augmented chords....And like you, I've also delt with musicians that simply don't understand the concept of a diminished chord as simple as it is...........A couple times I have had to rewrite the songs with dimished chords to make them more ordinary....There's a way to do it without taking away from the feel of the original arrangnent all that much...Here's what I did


aside from the "e" in the Edim chord your playing, the chord almost tends to act as Eb7 .....You could switch the chord to an Eb7 to make it easier for the bass player.......This is something that I've done many times to my own songs and usually it doens't effect the feel of the song too much.....I briefly strummed the chords and plucked some of the notes in your melody...and it doesn't seem to effect the fundamental feel and structure of your song all that much..........You can do the same thing with augmented chords...For example, if you take the Bb out of a F# augmented chord you wind up with a fragmented but ordinary D or Bm chord......And depending on the song, a regular D or Bm chord will usually be a pretty adequate surrogate chord for a f# augmented......That is of course unless the Bb note is a leading tone that leads into one of the notes that are in the next chord in the progression......In that case, the Bb note serves a critical function.....If it's not the case, then it usually doesn't serve a specific function and can usually be dropped out of the chord; hence forming the more mundane chord i.e. D or Bm


I know that was a long confusing explanation and perhaps it's not the best one...and maybe you already know that stuff...... you probably don't want to rewrite anything at this point anyway....but that's something you could keep in mind and perhaps use for yourself when you are experimenting with those types of chords in the future :)


- nave
 
nave said:
aside from the "e" in the Edim chord your playing, the chord almost tends to act as Eb7 .....You could switch the chord to an Eb7 to make it easier for the bass player.......
Click to expand...

Good stuff. I like these explanations. Gonna try it. Here I doubt it will work, since the e is the leading tone of Fm... But it might result in interesting progressions. Thanks!
 
Good Roel...I'm glad that you found that interesting and that I didn't type all that for nothing.......It's something I've always done for a long time but I never even told anyone bout that before....Not because it's some big secret...It's just that it must have never been relevent to any conversations I've had about music in the past...(other than with the musicians that didn't understand the damn chord in the first place :))..Anyhoo, hope you do try it sometime.............


On a side note, I have found that when playing in a minor key that the leading tone issue isn't as big of a deal since the leading tone is an entire whole step from the tonic (right? I think they call the route the tonic, I drawing a blank).......When your in a major key and the leading tone is a half step away from the tonic then the diminished chord becomes much more prevelent in the song.....for example, take a song in the key of G.....if your using an F# diminished right before going to a G chord.....Then you can really hear that leading tone and how it creates that tension that helps it to resolve the progression in a stronger manner...and in that case the technique I was talking about wouldn't be as effective....You would would have an F7 instead of the F# dim...and it would completely change the sound because the tension and the resolution wouldn't be there.........In a minor key the leading tone is not AS big of an issue....But in the end, it's all about how it sounds to you anyhow and so you might want to keep the diminished anyway...

Good luck with the song....


- nave

BTW, all that stuff is usually pretty effective when you want to take a song that is too jazy for rock n roll and play it in a rock style anyhow.......I find that changing the dim chord to another chord can often give one of my wimpy jazz progressions the umpff and power that it needs to become a rock song......
 
I love to talk/read about chords etc... That's one of the main reasons why I'll be studying composition next year. :cool:

In classical harmony, you always have an augmented seventh tone in a minor scale, because they NEED a leading tone... Without a leading tone classical music is lost, the dominant chords(V chords, in minor they would be m7 chords without raising the seventh) don't sound dominant... You can have a seventh tone that is not augmented, but not really over a dominant function, and only in a descending melody.

Well, you can discuss about it. Schoenberg's harmony book allows alot of things that my teacher really doesn't like. But anyway, the rule of thumb is: in minor, over a dominant function, you augment the seventh tone...

You can probably find some way to explain your tricks using 'modal harmony' etc... I'll take a look at it if I find the time...

The root is indeed the tonic.

I actually want it to sound jazzy... I'm the jazzdude in the band. The singer likes it too (he's kindof the leader, so that's important), but these chords scare the hell out of 'em all, they only know major, minor, minor7 and dominant7 chords... :rolleyes:

Now I must find a way to use the Naepolitan 6th-chord in a song... hmmmm.... :eek:
 
Yah it's fun to discuss this stuff.......I'm really not too TOO up on all my theory....I've taken college courses on theory in the past but I seldom ever use all of that knowledge and hence didn't retain it all....However, I do know what your saying about the classical harmonies and how they have the augmented seventh but I know more from listening to it then from studying theory.....The stuff you say about the presence and/or absence of the dominant function is interesting to me.....I'm sure I've learned that but I don't recall it....It does make sense though....The part about having the seventh played naturally in only descending fashion I find very interesting.....I have some reading up to do and I may just go out and buy that Schoenburg book now:D Out of curiousity, what doesn't your teacher agree with about that book? *ooof I just whacked my funny bone ouch *


Other than that I'm sure there is a way to explain what I was doing with theory...I'm not naive enough to think that I was the first person to ever think of that....Not sure how you would explain it with modes though but it very well could be...

And I figured you wanted to keep that song jazzy....I just thought I'd tell you what I was generally using that stuff for.....In otherwords, long after I stopped playing with the people that couldn't understand the chords I continued to use the technique for purposes other than just merely simplifying the song so someone could groove to it......It eventually became something I did for sonic quality......


anyway.....It's funny you never hear much theory talk on these boards....There should be more of it....I know I could probably learn alot from people hear about theory if it was only talked about more often...


- nave
 
I completely agree. More theory.

If you gonna get yourself a harmony book, be carefull with schoenberg... I follow a normal course, and read it in between, and it's still pretty heavy to read and understand. It's more a book for someone that already has ALL the basics covered, but wants some more/other insights in it.

Schoenberg gives some explanations that are wrong in his book, saying he puts chords in from one or another mode, while he just puts in the IV and V from another key (like secondary dominants, but also using the IV). Tell me when I've lost you here. :)

And there's some things that schoenberg allows that my teacher really doesn't approve. Don't remember what. I marked it on a paper and asked her what he did because I didn't get it...

The part of the seventh not being raised in a descending melody comes directly from the melodic minor scale, which has the sixth and seventh raised when ascending and both natural when descending...
 
Roel said:
Schoenberg gives some explanations that are wrong in his book, saying he puts chords in from one or another mode, while he just puts in the IV and V from another key (like secondary dominants, but also using the IV). Tell me when I've lost you here. :)

The part of the seventh not being raised in a descending melody comes directly from the melodic minor scale, which has the sixth and seventh raised when ascending and both natural when descending...

Click to expand...



Ok on the latter; I completely understand that it comes from the melodic minor.......All of a sudden it just flashed in my head & as soon as you said that I said "DOH!!! you knew that dummy" *nave slaps himself*


The other part I'm not clear on at all....and yes, I'm lost.....When you are saying the IV and V, you are reffering to the actual note of the scale I'm assuming and not the chord that correlates to that note in the scale right? Or, when I re-read what you wrote it sounds as if you are reffering to the actual chords and not the notes? when you say he takes the forth and fith from another key, what is the relationship between the key that he chooses the forth and fith from to key/mode that he is actually playing in? An example would be nice....


Thanks


- nave
 
We are talking about harmony, so it's the notes your talking about when you say V IV.....Duerh! Sometimes I amaze myself with my own stupidity :D
 
Roel,
Don't know if this will work for you:

Use F for the first bar of Fm. Then do two beats of F, two beats of Ab to voice lead to the Bbm. The Bbm7 play the root for two beats and then the Db (the minor third) as the root.

Change the chord to the Edim under the Db for two beats and then release the tension by changingthe voicing to a c7b9, which puts your melody note (the Db) on top of the voicing and allows the tension to release into the C7b9, plus gives you the V in the bass to lead you back into the Fm.

Hope it helps.

foo
 
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