Yet another new guy with questions

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vanstellar

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Hi, I'm currently attempting to deaden a room 12x18x7.5 it has a pre-deadened ceiling, hardwood floors two walls which are concrete with drywall over them and two more walls which will have to be constructed temporarilly. My questions include: what would be the best/most cost effective way to construct to good sounding walls, i've heard styrofoam with some nice studio quality wedge foam over it might do the trick. also what is the best type of foam to reduce echo, usually high range. Any input would be very appreciated
Thanks
Derek
 
1. What do you mean by "pre-deadened ceiling"?

2. By "concrete with drywall over it", do you mean there's a wooden stud frame between the drywall and concrete or not?

3. The walls you'd like to build must be temporary as in not permanent or removable at any given moment?

4. Walls don't sound good or bad. Music within a room can sound good or bad depending on a lot of different things one of which are walls.

5. Styrofoam walls? Am I reading that right? Do you mean a regular wall with wedge foam glued to it?

6. It is expressed all over this and other forums that rigid fiberglass will do a better job than foam for deadening purposes and save you money in the process.

Start here and read everything!!!!!!! http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

When your done, if you have questions, ask away.
 
Thank you both for the links, they were very helpful.
Chris-from-ky, in response to your questions:
1. The ceiling is a suspended rigid fiberglass ceiling, it was chosen especially for this application.
2.The drywall does have a wooden frame between it and the concrete.
3. By temporary I only meant not permanent.
4.
5. I was wrong calling them styrofoam, actually i was wrong even considering that idea, I have since looked into rigid fiberglass and have a shipment coming in very soon. This rigid fiberglass will have either wedge or pyramid foam.
 
This rigid fiberglass will have either wedge or pyramid foam.
HUH? :confused: Rigid fiberlass will have foam....foam what?.......I don't get it

Rigid fiberglass is.......well, FIBERGLASS :confused:
 
Well, I consider a standard stud wall not permanent because if you don't want it anymore, you just tear it down. The problem comes when you want the wall back again. You will not effectively isolate sound without mass and plenty of it. Are you hoping to make a recording space for evenings and weekends and be able to relocate the wall barriers for special events where you need more space? What is the specific purpose for keeping the barriers "not permanent"?

Surely from reading the two links provided you have a handle on what exactly we'd end up suggesting to you. Right?
 
Yes the links were most helpful, I am in a band and we are setting up a studio in my basement/bedroom, I live with my parents and they are unwilling to build a permanent room inside my room. I had the idea of attaching the fiberglass to 3/4 inch plywood to add some mass, would that help or hurt my situation? The standard stud wall is slightly out of budget and is not exactly what i'm looking for. I need something which we can tear down and set back up. thats why i had the idea for rigid fiberglass temp. walls, but after reading the other articles i picked up that mass helps deaden things, and that is where the plywood idea came from.
 
Hello vanstellar and welcome to the board. Say, it would really help if you tell us more about your space. For instance, is the house exterior ALL Concrete? In the area you describe, are the two walls made of concrete in a corner, or are the parallel to each other? Is this space in a basement or ground level? On a concrete slab? What is the space for that you are seperating your proposed "isolated" space from? Are these two concrete walls part of a concrete foundation or do they support rooms above, and are other walls that inclose this space concrete as well? Give us all the info you can. Even better would be a drawing, showing the WHOLE space TO SCALE, and the two "temporary walls, and what the other walls enclosing this WHOLE space are made of.



My questions include: what would be the best/most cost effective way to construct to good sounding walls, i've heard styrofoam with some nice studio quality wedge foam over it might do the trick. also what is the best type of foam to reduce echo, usually high range.

If I'm not mistaken, you are NOT so much concerned with "soundproofing", but you want these walls to be acoustically effective, as well as removable, no?

If my assumpation is correct, then as far as building temporary partitions, YES there is a way to do this, IF certain caveats are understood, and if existing conditions allow it. Thats why I need the answers about this rooms conditions and geometry.

But no matter how you look at it, "soundproofing" is out of the question, although, if done CORRECTLY, will act as a somewhat "acoustic barrier/boundary", in as much as a one leaf, inside out boundary can. Don't expect it to perform significant transmission loss, even as well as a typical residential wall. In fact, unless MASS such as 3/4" MDF is used, and carefull attention to fabrication detail is used, these might as well be a screen door. However, the more mass, the more WEIGHT you will have to deal with. And believe me, lift a sheet of 3/4" MDF, and you will see. Plus you have to SUPPORT IT!! But since "soundproofing" is NOT a criteria, I would suggest using full sheets of 1/2" ply with full 2x4 frames, lined with 3" rigid fiberglass, and fabric stapled to the frames. Hinge panels using heavy duty hinges, and support the end with a small wheel hardware geometry that allows 1/2" clearance at the floor and 1" clearance at top for a wooden "header guide" These gaps could be "gasketed", as well as the JAMB too. You could even mount certain hardware and use one end panel as a door. However, there are LOTS of details to consider, material availability, BUDGET, tools, skills and whole lot of questions to address first.
Acoustically, these walls will perform as a broadband absorpers , and if bass trapping is added at corners, these could extend the absorption of low frequencies , and this COULD be a very flexible recording space. But only if we know the facts.... as Sgt. Friday says....'just the facts mam" :D Here is an example of what I am talking about. Even the two existing "drywalls" over concrete will perform as membrane traps, IF, the airgap between the drywall and the concrete is AIRTIGHT, and the cavities are lined with batt type insulation. IF the studs are at 24" on center approx, you have "built in" low frequency absorption to a degree. As a "hinged" option, 12 feet in length is about the maximum, as 48"x(room height) is about as large as you can make one panel, and as a TRI FOLD assembly, thats about the maximum length total you will get. You would also have to mount the "jamb", where an existing stud is in the furred out wall.
Other than that, your only "removable" options are removable "hanging" panels, which have their set of problems, although the overall length of a wall is only limited by the support from above. However, hanging ONE 3/4" thick MDF panel could be.......lets just say, "challanging"...let alone 3. Not that fabricating a tri fold system is easy. Quite the contrary. Any of these type projects take SKILL and forethought. Not to mention a small budget.
Well, thats all I have time for right now. If this isn't an option, well, good luck with your plan. However, if it is let me know and I'll post some details. BTW, what is your ceiling HEIGHT and is it consistant?

fitZ
 

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How about this. You make a bunch of 2' by 8' frames made of 2x4's then screw two layers of drywall on one side, stuff it with insulation then apply speaker grill cloth to the open side and staple it all the way around so the insulation can't fall out. Then build a track on the floor and/or ceiling that the "mini walls" can slide into. For the final piece to fit so that they are all snug together, make the track just a bit shorter than the widths of all the mini walls added up. It won't take much. Maybe a 1/4" or less. The last peice would have to be chalked from the floor and ceiling in some way to keep in in place since it won't go in the track like the others. Understand? When you're done, just pull the miniwalls out and stack them up with the drywall facing down. Then just learn not to trip over the floor track!!!

I don't know, It's a suggestion. Maybe not a great one but, I'm grasping at straws here.
 
Wow, that is an amazing solution. Thank you very much. As for your questions: (explained in relation to the picture provided by Rick Fitzpatrick), The left and Bottom walls are solid concrete, part of a basement, and most definately part of the foundation, the ceiling is suspended at a height of 7'6'' and it is consistent. You're drawing of the situation is exactly right. The only addition (which i should have mentioned earlier) is on the top wall there are 3 support beams 6''x6'' with 5'6'' in between them, they could act as partly as a mounting system for the 3/4'' MDF. I am most definetly interested in more details on this idea.
Thanks
 
Very good suggestion, I am only concerned with the tracks being semi or even totally permanent.
Thanks
 
The only addition (which i should have mentioned earlier) is on the top wall there are 3 support beams 6''x6'' with 5'6'' in between them, they could act as partly as a mounting system for the 3/4'' MDF. I am most definetly interested in more details on this idea.
Cool. There are quite a few details, so give me this weekend and I'll pull em out of my hat :D I need some more info though. Can you post a pic of the ceiling and or room? I need to see the geometry of these "beams". Are these beams exposed, with a suspended ceiling between the beams? :confused: Or is this suspended ceiling covering the beams? Once I see it, then I can ask the right questions. One thing is for sure.
Both solutions require a track. These top tracks vary in type, quality and complexity. However, hanging 3 walls with 2 layers of drywall are ....lets just say HEAVY. They would require a beam that MUST SUPPORT this weight. Not only that, and no offence chris-from-ky, but in my opinion, what is the point of the mass when there are flanking paths all around these panels, and elsewhere.
And frankly, even 3/4" MDF is extremely heavy. Hence their mass. But just remember, you have frames, insulation, hardware and fabric. Consider a 12' wall will require 3 panels, each approx 48" in width. IF DOUBLE panels of drywall(gypsum board) are used, you are lookin at a chunk of weight. The BEAM, TRACK, ROLLERS, GUIDES and HINGES all are supporting this weight, hence need to be EXTREMELY heavy duty. That means weight. To me, that is an engineering exercise. The BEAM MUST support this weight, IF they are "hanging" from it. And in some respect, even my solution has to hang from a track, but they are much lighter. That is another reason for using ONE 1/2" ply panel per frame. BIRCH or equal grade, And frankly, IF as I assumed that transmission loss...aka "soundproofing" is NOT the criteria, what the hell. USE 1/4" ply then. And IF we can use use 1/4" ply, that implies that we could use TWO 1/4 panels instead of 1/2". Which is even BETTER. This means you can build a TWO LEAF assembly. Which in this case, is BASICLY, the same thing as a HOLLOW CORE DOOR...only it is MUCH wider/higher. Think of frame made from 1x4's (do you want cm?), and a layer of THIN batt type insulation in the frame cavity, with a skin of 1/4" ply contact cemented to each side of the frame. Then ADD ANOTHER frame of 1x 4 to these panels. Theres more to it, but thats the crux. Everything else is hardware and rigid fiberglass. Heres a detail from a vertical section. I still have to work out the PIVOT geometry. But that requires knowing EXACTLY what hardware is available to you. The drawing is a TYPICAL only.
fitZ
What I suggest as panels is actually very easy to build. And it takes very little tools/skills. Anyway, here is some TYPICAL stuff. First a track and section detail of the frame geometry. This shows 3" rigid fiberlass, which requires an outside frame 4 3/4" wide. That means when folded against wall, they will take up a foot deep of space for one wall. BTW, no bottom track is required. But latching hardware for each panel may be desirable .
fitZ
 

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Here is a typical folding geometry, depending on your final dimensions of each item. Once you know everything you are using, I can detail the dimensions of the panels EXACTLY.
 

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BTW, heres another "floor space saver" idea. ;)
 

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