Workshopping Lyrics

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ido1957

ido1957

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Mainly picked this up from another thread...
Do you like to workshop your lyrics - solicit and/or incorporate other people's suggestions for your lyrics?
Or do you "own them" as mentioned in the other thread?
 
OK, I'll play seeing I made the comment...

I've always thought that publishing lyrics out of musical context is a bad idea. They rarely "work" out there on their own.

No problem with people seeking specific help with a specific problem they may be facing in this forum, but JUST putting lyrics up and saying "what do you think of my lyrics?" when there's no music to go with it smacks of the need for continual positive reinforcement that is the bane of the Singing "Can I sing? No, really, can I sing? Be nice to me, I think need a hug.." Forum... That's just attention seeking.

What do I think of your lyrics? Record them to the music and I'll tell you. Right now they just look like lyrics and could go either way... They're not poetry, there's meant to be music there too.

The "workshopping" comment is about people who don't appear to know what they want to do and openly solicit lyrical feedback - if that floats your boat, then me ranting here isn't going to stop you, but a bit of confidence wouldn't go astray. How do you not know what you want to say?

I feel roughly the same way about people workshopping the music itself - but that's a greyer area and not many people actually do it anyway. That's what I meant about "owning" what you do. It's the vision thang...

You're here, presumably, because you're a recording "artist" in some stage of development and, also presumably, have some idea of what it is you're trying to achieve and you want to learn how to record it. IMO, it's not the "How to write a song" forum - it's a forum to discuss songwriting, such as is occurring the thread in which I made the comment, and if anyone kicks this thread along, will happen here as well..

In your journey, you'll get feedback on lyrics, and music, and recording here on the various forums, and you'll do what you will with that feedback, but I think if you don't know what you want to do, if you don't have that vision, then why are you here? What is it you're recording?

Workshopping what you do, artistically, just bends everyone back towards the mean, the average, rather than the exceptional ... and the great artists just did what they did, and just do what they do, and people follow... or not... and that pushes everyone along.

I can't imagine Greg lobbing in here and saying "I can't think of how to make these words work? Help me!" Same with heatmiser... or RayC... or fatfleet... or fritzthegirl... or any number of others that hang around here, because they know what they're trying to do... and they just get on with it... Pretty sure most of the people we pay homage to as great rock (or whatever) artists, didn't workshop... they knew... or they didn't know and didn't care..

And even though the song I'm trying to write at the moment has a desparate structural lyrical problem I need to sort out, I'm not going to seek solutions here, because in the process of sorting it out and banging my head trying to nut it out, the song will grow and perhaps end up somewhere else entirely, and that is sort of what it's all about for me...

None of that may make any sense to you, so I say in the biggest letters possible ... IMHO & YMMV!

/rant
 
LOL... your mileage may vary... you can put that in a song some time Ray... :laughings:
 
Hi, It's an interesting question. Personally I find it a thin line for a couple of reasons. It's useful to read responses and suggestions but on the other hand if someone comes up with a really good idea I'd probably kick myself for not thinking of it myself. There is something about writing one's own material in entirety which if it turns out well, a sense of pride in the fact that it's all the author's work and it takes nothing from any additional source. There is also a discussion to be had around the wisdom of not wanting to incorporate a really good idea provided by someone else. Obviously material created alone is credited to the author even if it's not particularly good and as such the ownership aspect may be less attractive.

Improved word placement is potentially an area I'd be happy to consider as an input from others but a general feel is probably more what I would want to get out of having stuff workshopped. Not me thinking I am a better writer than anyone else, but I do see the impressionism side of writing lyrics as very important in my own writing, the words might not make a whole lot of sense but if they can deliver the images I have in mind, I'll be reasonably happy.

There are a decent number of people contributing here who deserve my respect as I can see they are switched on and have a wealth of knowledge and experience which enables thoughtful input. Quite how I'd feel having used someone else's idea in a song and have people remark that the contributed part is fantastic is something to think about. Certainly not a simple thing to have fixed opinions on.

Tim
 
I've been working with my friend Mike lately where I add a bit here and there to his lyrics and song chords. Usually just minors versus majors and keeping it in key. I really have to say that I've tended to let him make major decisions in all regards, as he is usually on the money...
 
Ido,
Your lyrics are "heard" perfectly. I don't recall seeing any interestingly but I don't need to. Your selection of words suits your theme and carries the melody so nothing else is needed unless you feel you're not achieving. You work with Mike is terrific - I couldn't pull his songs apart & say that's a Gerry bit, that's Mike etc. You blend into his songs.
Armistice,
Your songs are excellent & they do appear to have had some serious thought go into them because you usually tell a story - and tell it well.
I have lobbed the occasional set of lyrics into this forum - usually because I haven't been contributing much and some chatter over my lyrics get me started again. It can be a bit of acamel committee if too many suggestions are taken on. I've often come away with a stronger feeling for my own words after tey've been deglazed by a few comments. It was strongly suggested that I make Watch less relentless for example but that's precisely what I was ginning for so felt pleased.
I popped up the lyrics for Kennedy Avalon because I wasn't sure how sensitive our Septic friends were to a critique of the kennedy brithers. That worked out well becaue folk just said run with it. In the end my coworiter, Terry, came out of his sabbatical and did his own revision a he was slated to sing it.
Phrasemaker,
Feedback on a collab is difficult both ways. On occasion Terry was citicized for not being passionate enough in his delivery. That's just not him & to my mind not the intent of the songs either but I did feel bad for him. On other occasions I've copped flac for sloppy timing or tuning where he's done well - I felt I'd let the team down so to speak. All that bieing said there is some pride to be had in delivery a well crafted set of words on the Pat Malone!
 
Do you like to workshop your lyrics - solicit and/or incorporate other people's suggestions for your lyrics?
Never.
I'm very insular about my lyrics. I'm never in the slightest bit interested what someone thinks of my lyrics before they're finished. In fact, I never show my lyrics before they're done. The first time any human ever sees them is when the vocalist is doing a vocal for me. Sometimes they've laughed, sometimes they've asked me what it's all about, pretty often, they've just looked with a quizzical look.......but they're always presented as a fait accompli. Whatever I want to say, I'm going to say it and if the reader doesn't like it, there's not much I can do about that. Whereas, when recording, I'm never averse to suggestions. I don't ask for them, but if someone says "Can I/we try such and such ?" I'll give them a whirl. Many a time it's worked and was better than what was going to be there. But never with lyrics. I'm touchy about that. A friend of mine once observed that I didn't write love songs and said that "that's what most rock songs are about", intimating I should write some. That was in 1994. I still haven't written any luuurrrrvve songs {not in the sense she meant, anyway}.
As far as I can recall, I've only ever changed a lyric once because of someone. In a song called "Beth in left hand", there was a line "never grieve a gully cat". My friend that was doing the vocal misread my writing and sang "never greet a gully cat". At that precise moment, I thought it sounded neat so I said let's leave it like that. But I regret it now, "never greet a gully cat" is such a stupid phrase and as my mate now lives in the Congo, I'm stuck with it !
 
I generally come up with a specific idea for a song and write the lyrics - then, when the rough draft is done, I'll run it by people and see what they say. Periodically they'll point out inconsistencies in the story, or rephrase lyrics that still maintain the meat of what I'm trying to say. Sometimes I use the ideas, sometimes I don't.

Daryl
 
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