T
tvolhein
Tom Volhein
Wouldn't it be better to get a good tube pre? Then add the color to any good mic?
t
t
bubbagump
New member
Same reason you salt the pasta in the water... it tastes different then if you salt just the sauce. 
Or to simplify, because it sounds different. Take guitar amps... different tube configurations lend to different sounds. A Twin doesn't sound like a JCM800 which doesn't sound like a Mesa Boogie. But they are all tube amps. So just because something has a tube in it doesn't mean it automatically sounds like something else that has a tube in it.
Or to simplify, because it sounds different. Take guitar amps... different tube configurations lend to different sounds. A Twin doesn't sound like a JCM800 which doesn't sound like a Mesa Boogie. But they are all tube amps. So just because something has a tube in it doesn't mean it automatically sounds like something else that has a tube in it.
antichef
pornk rock
The tube in the mic is definitely playing a different role from the tube in a pre -- I know there are technical details on this issue in this forum somewhere (searching would be a good idea, but I'm not sure of the best terms to use). If nothing else, though, the tube in the mic is taking the extremely weak and high impedance signal from the diaphragm (after it's been through some other electronic components in the mic) and boosting it up to the pretty weak and low impedance signal that goes through the mic cable. The tube in the pre is taking the pretty weak and low impedance signal that comes through the cable (which has been previously boosted/converted perhaps by a tube mic or a fet or transformer) and boosting it to line level.
PhilGood
Juice box hero
Where tube mics have an advantage is when they start to break up after being pushed. Tubes add even order harmonics to the sound, which is very musical. FET's add odd order harmonics, which sound bad. This is very important to have happen at the first stage of amplification. Not to mention that FETs and tubes have different specs in things like headroom. Unless you use a really expensive FET it will never "breathe" the way a tube does.
Tubes come with a price though. Very few have low enough self noise to be good in a microphone.
Tubes come with a price though. Very few have low enough self noise to be good in a microphone.
X
xstatic
New member
The only reason to buy a tube mic in my opinion should be because you like the way the mic sounds. If you try not to think of a tube mic as a mic with some osrt of additional feature things make more sense. The of the mic as a whole unit. Something that either sounds good or doesn't. If it happens to have a tube in it, so be it. My peluso P12 has a tube in it yet does not seem "colored" like a preamp would do, or "fat" like some people seem to think all tube stuff does. It has has a very natural and even keeled sound to it with LOTS of dimension and sensitivity. In quality gear, the fact that it does or doesn't have a tube has less to do with creating color and more to do with implementing an overall design. If it happens to have a very "colored" sound this is more likely due to a combination of many factors (only one of which being the tube) and is a reflection of the designers intended target sound and use.
R
recordingpro
New member
What makes you think a good tube mic colors the sound??
MartinKantola
Mixologist
This is not correct. It's more the topology of the circuit that affects the spectrum of distortion. Also, might be worth noticing that many think that analog tape sounds good, but it does produce lots of odd order harmonics.
Nonsense. The price of the FET has nothing to do with this. A FET is a very inexpensive device to begin with.
Martin
rayc
retroreprobate
You buy it beacuse you like the way it helps capture the sound.
If you buy for any other reason, other than on strong recommendation from someone who likes the way it helps capture the sound, then it's more gear snobbery than anything else.
I someone has one but wants to give it away try me. If I don't like it I'll pass it on to someone who might!
naiant had a micro tube mic for a while but they went out of production I think - bummer - the reviews about it came with some very good reccos.(& it was pretty cheap).
If you buy for any other reason, other than on strong recommendation from someone who likes the way it helps capture the sound, then it's more gear snobbery than anything else.
I someone has one but wants to give it away try me. If I don't like it I'll pass it on to someone who might!
naiant had a micro tube mic for a while but they went out of production I think - bummer - the reviews about it came with some very good reccos.(& it was pretty cheap).
_brian_
Member
I guess this kind of question resides in the same bag as - whether to record using all analogue equipment or to record in a daw & then run the master through a stereo reel to reel to get the "warmth" of analogue. All just taste & differences in methodology.
The tube mic will sound different than other mics, an outboard tube preamp wouldn't nessisarilly have the same effect. Also you could run the tube mic through a tube preamp and have a tube sonic party. I'll bring my ice helmet & a few swaggins of collet.
The tube mic will sound different than other mics, an outboard tube preamp wouldn't nessisarilly have the same effect. Also you could run the tube mic through a tube preamp and have a tube sonic party. I'll bring my ice helmet & a few swaggins of collet.
T
tvolhein
Tom Volhein
What's an FET?
_brian_
Member
FET field effect transistor, lot's of different types mosfet blah blah blah. Not interesting. 
It's a transistor, the descreet equivelent to a tube.
Correct when analogue is really driven to extreme, but if digital were to be driven to the same comparitive extreme it would sound like white noise & shards of glass. There are more even harmonics than odd harmonics with analogue the opposite is true for digital. Why push the argument to an unusable extreme? The only reason digital is around is that it's cheaper, more reliable & easier to work with, live with it
It's a transistor, the descreet equivelent to a tube.
Correct when analogue is really driven to extreme, but if digital were to be driven to the same comparitive extreme it would sound like white noise & shards of glass. There are more even harmonics than odd harmonics with analogue the opposite is true for digital. Why push the argument to an unusable extreme? The only reason digital is around is that it's cheaper, more reliable & easier to work with, live with it
MartinKantola
Mixologist
FET field effect transistor, lot's of different types mosfet blah blah blah. Not interesting.
Guess you are thinking about the FET being the SOLID STATE or SEMICONDUCTOR equivalent of a vacuum tube. Google and Wikipedia can be very useful for those interested in this topic.
Martin
MartinKantola
Mixologist
No, this is not how it works at all. Where on earth is this kind of information coming from?
Martin
_brian_
Member
Sounds like a hit a nerve, why?
I build my own effects, and worked as an instrument engineer in hunterston power station before all that. I may have a small amout of technical knowledge on the subject but it's off topic & it may not meet you standards, but it doesn't interest & so it really doesn't matter. I'm not interested in arguing with someone obviousley only interested in arguing, log into your electronics forum & jack off all you want, this is home recording bbs. Go and pick through someone elses posts. You are correct, I made a mistake with electronic lingo big deal, grow up.
MartinKantola
Mixologist
Relax _brian_, we're here to share information. Let people contribute.
To answer the original question; the audio circuitry that follows the microphone capsule seems to have a great impact on the resulting sound. What is lost at this first stage is lost forever. A pre-amp with a tube doesn't help.
The great thing about a tube microphone is that it usually has very simple circuitry which seems to allow a lot of information to pass through. Basically capsule, tube, coupling capacitor and transformer. Having said this, just because a microphone has a tube doesn't make it a good one.
Martin
To answer the original question; the audio circuitry that follows the microphone capsule seems to have a great impact on the resulting sound. What is lost at this first stage is lost forever. A pre-amp with a tube doesn't help.
The great thing about a tube microphone is that it usually has very simple circuitry which seems to allow a lot of information to pass through. Basically capsule, tube, coupling capacitor and transformer. Having said this, just because a microphone has a tube doesn't make it a good one.
Martin
PhilGood
Juice box hero
I think you need to relax Martin. You're the one who jumped in here correcting people as though you are the ultimate authority. It is fairly common information all over that tubes do indeed supress odd order harmonics and allow second order to be predominant. It's all over the web and books that I have. I can provide you with many links, but I'm sure you can easily find them on your own.
And perhaps I should have said, "a higher costing or better FET" and not "expensive". You seem to feel the need to take over rather than contribute. Keep it up on this site and you'll find yourself ostracized rather quickly.
rayc
retroreprobate
Martin,
Are you offering Google & wiki as sources of accurate info?
12 years olds are taught to corroborate with three sources & preferably NOT wiki amongst them - which suggests that we all need to be careful with open sources.
Google is ubiquitous but not exhaustive or definitive. Any search engine that is a business and requires a fee for listing is going to be "convenient" not "reliable". It worries me that instead of suggesting one search the net clever manipulation has seen many folk use the business name Google as a verb and advert in one.
Oh, and steady on fella: ALL opinions are just that and we are all prone to overstatement and inaccuracies on occasion. Pulling someone up on an error is fine BUT please try to do it in the sense of a discussion rather than an argument or browbeating.
You seem to have a lot to offer - if you'd like people to pay attention please skip the bitter pill policy and opt for brevity and wit.
If you have trouble accommodating these ideas simply think back to the teacher you disliked most & how little you learnt from them. think about why and then a little light should go BING!
Are you offering Google & wiki as sources of accurate info?
12 years olds are taught to corroborate with three sources & preferably NOT wiki amongst them - which suggests that we all need to be careful with open sources.
Google is ubiquitous but not exhaustive or definitive. Any search engine that is a business and requires a fee for listing is going to be "convenient" not "reliable". It worries me that instead of suggesting one search the net clever manipulation has seen many folk use the business name Google as a verb and advert in one.
Oh, and steady on fella: ALL opinions are just that and we are all prone to overstatement and inaccuracies on occasion. Pulling someone up on an error is fine BUT please try to do it in the sense of a discussion rather than an argument or browbeating.
You seem to have a lot to offer - if you'd like people to pay attention please skip the bitter pill policy and opt for brevity and wit.
If you have trouble accommodating these ideas simply think back to the teacher you disliked most & how little you learnt from them. think about why and then a little light should go BING!
MartinKantola
Mixologist
Phil, you had many excellent points I do agree 100% with, but only chose to comment a couple of things.
As an example I'm with you that tubes usually "behave better" when driven into clipping, any guitar player knows that. But in my experience, microphones are not normally operated at such high SPL's, so I can't agree with your general claim that:
Looking at it the other way, I don't think it's the presence of even order harmonics that make tube microphones sound great.
Truly sorry if you felt my comments to be too aggressive... Will try to be more polite next time.
Martin
As an example I'm with you that tubes usually "behave better" when driven into clipping, any guitar player knows that. But in my experience, microphones are not normally operated at such high SPL's, so I can't agree with your general claim that:
Looking at it the other way, I don't think it's the presence of even order harmonics that make tube microphones sound great.
Truly sorry if you felt my comments to be too aggressive... Will try to be more polite next time.
Martin
MartinKantola
Mixologist
The internet is the internet. It's not the truth, but I find that by doing some browsing (several sources) and staying critical you can quite easily get decent information, at least on the most basic level. But yes, good books are much better if you have access to them.
Good advice. But sometimes comments just come out a little harsh for one reason or another. This time I was the guilty one. Sometimes it's not only a bad thing if a good discussion is triggered.
There are also cultural differences and language issues. As an example, we people of the North have a way of expressing ourselves in a pretty direct way, and English is my third language. Please remember this before you "ostracize" me.
Martin
_brian_
Member
Wont it depend on the design of the preamp circuit? Clipping can start at virtually no i/p level if it's wired to do so.