Why can I not plagiarize? (new songwriter)

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RUXper1enced

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(Yo, put this in the songwriting forum, thought it would apply here too, being a newbie as I am.)

Hey this is my second post here, discovered the board last night, it seems great. I've had some trouble with this for a while. I am constantly listening to music: around the house, in the car, wherever. I'm sure many of you do. When I try to think up a melody (with or without guitar) I can't seem to get away from the melodies I've heard a million times before, the few short notes I can put together lead quickly into something else I've heard.

Looking at my musical history, I completely blame myself for this. I've taken lessons in piano for 7-ish years and guitar for about 2. In all this time, I have wasted my time merely learning individual songs. Noticing that other people were commonly writing their own stuff and improvising in jazz and such, I've grown more and more to want to join that crowd of the creative.

A few weeks ago, I informed my guitar teacher of my desire and he began working with me on the concept of keys(although I knew of them of course, I had no working knowledge available.), the scales for each note in a key, common chord progressions, etc. Last week he asked me to try to write my own song out of the key of Gmaj. Even I recognize that this is a pretty simple request, but I have been completely unable to come up with anything.

I really don't know my chords very well, how to move them up the fretboard and such, so it's also hard to know which chords I wish to base things off of. Back to my original problem, keeping all the music I listen to out of my head at these times I'm struggling to create something.

So what do you think? Do I just need to focus better? try longer? or am I not ready to start at all? Please let me know!!
 
There are almost as many ways to write songs as there are songwriters. You need to relax and not try so hard. Here's some things that may help:

Start with a bass line. Keep it simple. For the sake of this exercise, let's make it just one note! Play a low G (since you mentioned key of G) and find a nice little 4 to 12 note rhythmic pattern, (but just stay on G.) Keep repeating the pattern until the groove is solid. Then record it.

Now you need a melody. For starters, write down any 2-6 notes at random. Now try to make them fit over your recorded bass line. Don't worry about avoiding dissonance yet - embrace it!

Once you have a melodic motif, explore the classic methods of variation: play it backwards, modulate it up or down, change the rhythmic placement within the line, expand or contract the intervals between the notes, speed it up or slow it down, etc.

Now you're jammin'! Obviously this is somewhat academic and smacks more of an exercise than of music. But the point is to get you to see that it's not black magic. You fool around on your axe, try random ideas, and every once in a while you strike gold. The important thing is to write down or record the fragments that seem worthwhile so you don't forget them and can expand them into something bigger and more complete.

Depending on what kind of music you are interested in, you may need to study a little theory. How chords function, how melodic motion works, what are the standard song forms, etc. But don't let present lack of knowledge stop you from getting started being creative right away!
 
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RU - The easy answer to why you can't plagarize can be found at http://news.findlaw.com./hdocs/docs/zamba/ctrlbritney60702cmp.pdf. You'll need Adobe Reader to view it. It is the complaint filed in Pennsylvania Federal Court against Brittney Spears, her managers and publisher, alleging copyright infringement. If found liable Ms. Spears and friends are going to be giving the two plaintiffs an awful lot of money.

littledgog has given you excellent advice. Songwriting is a process, as well as an art, and must be worked at. The only way you can learn it is to do it and pick up as much music education along the way as you can. I don't necessarily mean lessons or tutoring, those those are great, but reading and studying everything you can get your hands on re songwriting and music. Everything we write is derivative in some sense. Just listen to any song that uses a C/B chord for color. Almost every writer has used it one time or another (some people have made careers using it), but they all use it in their own way. Every good writer has a "thumbprint" on their songs; something by which you know it's their song. Listen to Guy Clark, Townes Van Zandt, Bruce Springsteen or any of the other great writers and you will see what I'm trying to describe.

In the meantime, try not to get sued for copyright infringement. Courts and lawyers are expensive, time consuming and boring.

I don't know why, but the screen isn't showing the whole URL for the link and it won't let me edit it. Try just going to http://findlaw.com. and look for a category called "Hot Documents" and the Brittney Spears lawsuit document.
 
I 100% disagree, almost all songs have elements taken from something else. Most rock songs have similar chord structures, tempos. etc. Write a blues tune, chances are it will sound exactly like all of the other blues tunes. I'm not saying duplicate on purpose someone else's melody or chord structures, but if you hear a tune and you like the chorus, if it inspires you to write something, go for it. It's almost IMPOSSIBLE to come up with an original melody or chorus (that sounds appealing to the general public). We are conditioned to enjoy certain chord structures that have been around since the early days for recorded music. Most of us start out making music that sounds similar to the style of music we listen to. This is ok, when you start improvising, jamming, etc, that's when your melody will start to come out. But for the main chord structure of a song, it certainly is ok to start with something that works already. As many rock guitar players have stated, if you can learn to play c-f-g you can play a ton of songs. :)

I think too many wannabees fall into advice like this. They end up trying to be original, totally unique, in effect writing music that nobody wants to hear. Sure, they may get critical acclaim from other musicans, local players, but are they really appealing to the "average joe"?

Is my music original? Hell no, but is it good simple rock music that everyone can get into? I hope so...

Warning: I'm still somewhat a newbie, and my statements may fall into the shite category.
 
While there's some interesting and valid info on the last 2 posts (probably enough for a big ol' thread debate), I'd stick with Littledog's advice for now - it's good advice.

There's nothing wrong with getting inspiration from other songs - I do it all the time. I usually take the rhythm and groove of a song that inspires me and build a new one using that. By the time I'm done, I've changed the rhythm quite a bit to match the feel of the chords and tones I came up with and then it's a completely different song.

If your head seems to get stuck inside a tune and you can't veer from it, you can try starting with lyrics. Usually the phrazing will be enough to pull you out of it.

Stick with it though, man. There's nothing like pulling a complete song out of your head (or ass in my case) and onto a recording, knowing that you built it by hand :D
 
If you try to live in a vacuum you'll puff out, suffocate, and die.

Yeah, it's almost impossible not to be derivative. Whether it's music, art, science, literature, etc, every idea is built on what came in the past. I can't think of one example to the contrary.

A compositional approach to consider is a "philosophical" one. Some artists base their work around a conceptual structure or method. For example, the great cinematographer Vittorio Storaro who did Apocalypse Now, Dune, and The Sheltering Sky uses his own philosophy of color to help compose his breathtaking images. Each color stands for a force of nature - green (water), ocher (earth), red (fire) and blue (air) - and each force is associated with particular emotions and states of mental development. When you watch one of his movies, beyond the plot, you will see an amaizing parallel story being told in color. One can imagine a similar approach to composing music.

Your "philosophy" may be a pure fabrication, and may have nothing to do with the way things "really" are. But, it can provide a frame of reference and a cohesive theme to your work. It might help you piece together those "plagiarized" elements you find stuck in your head in unique and creative ways.

Just an idea:)

barefoot
 
Okay, now you guys are starting to depress me :(

I'm sure that most of the familiar chord structures are there, and musically and mathematically, everything can be linked to something recorded earlier.

But I like to look at it differently (diluted and loaded with denial, though it may be). I just look at it as expression.

Although I can't invent any new notes, chords or words, I can invent new songs with new things to say, play, and express. I do hear "new" things quite often (although I do hear more "refried beans" than original music).

I guess I try not to take the music apart and see how it was built, I just try to enjoy it for what it is as a finished product, and hope that people do the same with the music I create.

...now if I could just get "It's All Been Done" by BNL out of my head... :D
 
Am I missing something? It sounds like most of you are agreeing with me. Yeah, everything we do is derivative. What makes a songwriter a songwriter is that he builds on that knowledge base and adds his own color and/or "thumbprint" as stated in my original post. If you don't do that and merely copy another's work, you run a pretty fair chance of getting sued if the song is generating any income.

Re the bluegrass reference - I write a lot of bluegrass/old time-influenced tunes, but there is a major schism in the bluegrass community between folks who want to things to stay the same and folks like David Grisman and Bela Fleck who write stuff that is more jazz influenced. Ironically, that's what Bill Monroe did initially, he took old Scottish and folk tunes and put a little swing in them. You can pick up almost any Bluegrass periodical and find rabid letters and columns pro and con on the issue. Bottom line is songwriters write songs and the public will either accept them or won't.
 
Not that I know, but I've been listening to some Bluegrass lately, and I can definitely hear a Celtic influence in at least some of it.

So who influenced the Celts?

In regards to the derivitive issue, I think it was Newton who, when asked how he was able to make his amazing discoveries (Gravity, Calculus to name two) stated: "Because I was standing on the shoulders of giants."--referring to his scientific predecessors.

How does this apply to music and plagiarism?

I have no idea.
 
tdukex - I don't know, I think things kind of got off track from the original question. I also hear a lot of Celtic influences in bluegrass and I don't think that it's coincidence that American bluegrass artists find much more acceptance in Ireland than they do in the U.S. sometimes. It's the same way in Japan.

I think things got off track from the question because folks seem to think that because songs have the same chord progressions or structure that might be considered plagarism or copyright infringement. I was trying to point out (apparently not very well) that the elements of copyright infringement are pretty narrow and don't really come into play unless you try to exploit someone else's song economically or to deprive them of the right of authorship. I guess my answer should have stated "becasuse it's illegal" and left it at that.
 
Slightly off topic, but what I find amazing is that after 2 yrs of lessons with a guitar teacher you don't know your way around the fingerboard of the guitar...................I mean, wtf has this guy been teaching you? Surely if he was willing to take your money he should have had the decency to actually TEACH you. If he had done that, you may not have had to ask this question.



:cool:
 
ausrock said:
Slightly off topic, but what I find amazing is that after 2 yrs of lessons with a guitar teacher you don't know your way around the fingerboard of the guitar...................I mean, wtf has this guy been teaching you? Surely if he was willing to take your money he should have had the decency to actually TEACH you. If he had done that, you may not have had to ask this question.
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Like I said, individual songs. It's what I asked for, it's what I got.
 
QUOTE:............"Like I said, individual songs. It's what I asked for, it's what I got."


Fair enough...........I guess that's the difference between having a guitar teacher and a song teacher.

:cool:
 
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