Which mixers could I use the preamps for multi track recording?

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Jedman

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I was looking at getting a couple of Mic 2200s, but I saw a thread where some of you suggested a mixer to someone that wanted basically the same thing I do -- multiple preamps.

What makes a mixer able to be used as a multi - channel preamp, and what are some good value ones? I guess I thought mixers only had one or two channel output.

Thanks for clearing this one up for me,
Jed
 
They have either direct outs, or inserts on each preamp.
So you can bypass the eq and all that crap, and go directly out from the preamp.

The mackie 1202 vlz pro will give you 4 solid preamps, the soundcraft m4 will also give you 4 solid preamps. I believe the soundcraft is a little bit more, and some people say it sounds a little better than the mackie. Some people say the mackie is better because it has a much higher headroom. But, the soundcraft has faders instead of the 1202's knobs. So there are trade off's in price and features, but i think you'd be happy with each.

If you need more preamps, you can take a step up in the mackie line to a 1404 or 1604, or a soundcraft m8 or m12. Same preamps, just more.

I'm thinking of doing this for some preamps and for controlling the volume of monitoring speakers and headphones, but people are saying it's a bad idea to put the monitoring signal through a "cheap" mixer, and that it will significantly impact the sound. I still need to look into this issue, but other than that it's hard to beat the deal you get on one of those board. If you work out the price per channel of the preamps, it works out to getting 4 very solid preamps and a cheap price, plus a free mixing board.
 
Most mixers have direct out or insert jack that can be used for recording.

What mixers are good value? That depends on your interpretation of "value".$$
 
Jedman said:
What makes a mixer able to be used as a multi - channel preamp, and what are some good value ones?...
Jed

Basically it depends what you want to do.

If money is no object you could just go out a buy a rack full of Avalons or whatever, but you haven't really made yourself clear.
If you just wnat to record one or two channels simultaneously then a two channel pre like a Studio Projects VTB1 or the more expensive RNP will probably suit your needs.

If you want to record with a microphone then you need obviously need a preamp. How many preamps you need is dependant on how many microphones you need simultaniously to record with. Do you require EQ whilst tracking? Do you require flexible monitoring whilst tracking, do you want to add compression, limiting and FX etc whilst tracking. Will you need to mix a drumkit whislt tracking? If you do then you probably need some kind of mixer. As long it is not a line only mixer it will come with preamps.

Now to cut to the chase, all the references you've probably read about outboard pres stem from the fact the people either want higher quality pres (often only a couple) than the generic standard pres that come in most low to mid mixers, or they don't really need a mixer at all as they are just tracking direct into their PC etc and intend doing everything else in the digital domain.

However a rack of say eight fairly high quality pres will cost you more than an eight mic input Mackie or Behringer etc. and you won't have the flexibility of all the features a mixer offers... BUT you will probably have a better quality signal.

INSERT POINTS AND DIRECT OUTS!

Many mixers will allow you to access just the pres and bypass the rest of the signal chain if you tap into the insert point of the channel and then feed that direct to your DAW etc. This usually occurs before the EQ stage and while you can't tweek the EQ as a result, in the case of the Mackies with non-switchable EQ sections, will provide a better quality signal than going through then entire channel stage. Whilst the insert is usually used for patching a compressor or other device into the signal chain, the amplified mic signal can be accessed here and sent off to some other place thus avoiding any extra travel through unneccessary mixer circuitry that may not be required.

Other mixers have direct outs which are usally post fader and leave the EQ stage intact but won't improve the sonics that much compared with the direct out approach as the signal is passing through the entire channel strip anyway.

Another option over the standard Behringer/Mackie approach is something like an Alan & Heath Mixwizard. These are very flexible little consoles with nice sounding pres and EQ's and will give you both insert points AND direct outs to play with! ;)

The Behringers and new Alto's are the cheapest but their bottom range units won't give you insert points or direct outs and they are really just entry level at the very least.

If you can scrape together the $$$ I'd consider something like a Mixwizard as it will give you enough quality features without going over board. Otherwise if you don't need more that a couple of channels simultaneously go for a decent quality outboard pre.

A word of warning though... two channels is NEVER ENOUGH!! ;)
 
Jedman-
Didnt you just get a 1010- itd probably be nice to have as many pres as you have ins on the card- I got the M8 about a week ago- (usin with 1010lt) its like they were meant for each other- my suggestion for soundcarft stuff though- go to soundcraft.com- look at the list of auth dealers in your area- most of them in my area were NOT retail outlets- but contractors / pro installers- they dont have to deal so much with overhead and runnin a sales outfit, as there money comes from install jobs and such - drawback the gotta order it so you need to know what you want befor ya buy- up side, theyre cheaper than retail outlets (my experience anyway) - the M8 has channle inserts and direct outs on all 8 mono channels- no sub groups though (hasnt been a prob yet) but you could use aux sends as groups. aside from these direct outs on each channel there is still a main and monitor stereo out- a have monitors hooked up here- oh yeah. the m8 also has a stereo s/pdif stereo in-out- that hasnt proven valuable to me yet- but its there if i need it- biggest benifit of usin a mixer over a rack full of pres, i think, is convinience. its all in one and you get max. easy signal routing possibilities

hope that helps

-jeff
 
Wow - thanks guys, this is totally the information I needed! Now I will admit I'm not looking to spend a lot of money on this, because I spent most of it already, (Jeff, I got the Delta 1010), and I will upgrade later if I need to. But...I'd like to get the project off the ground, and I'm just waiting on mic preamps.
So, could you offer me an opinion on two of these new Behringer UB series mixers? The EURORACK UB2222FX-PRO, and the EURORACK UB2442FX-PRO? Web link is HERE: http://www.behringer.com/02_products/index.cfm?mid=2&smid=3&lang=eng
The 2222 has 8 mic pres, which would be the perfect match for my Delta 1010; the 2442 has 10 mic pres, and direct outs. (would I ever use the potential?). I guess I could go from the Channel Inserts to the the Delta 1010 (lines 1-8) on the 2222.
The 2222 is $299, and the 2442 is $349.
I realize both these units will not be as high quality as the Soundcraft board you have, but if I get it from MF, I could always return it if I'm not satisfied with the quality, right?

Thanks for your help,
Jed Smith
 
Hey kremitmusic do you find that controlling the volume of your monitoring speakers through the mixing board degrades the quality of the signal very much? I thought that the mixing board would be a good device to do this with, but i've been told not to send the signal through a mixer like that, as it will degrade the quality.

Have you heard the monitors direct out of your sound card compared to out the mixer?


What about you Pundit? Do you think there would be a noticable degradation of quality if you ran the signal through the mixing board and controlled the volume of your monitoring speakers through the mixing board?

I'm having trouble finding another way to do this, besides buying an expensive passive preamp. Also if i did this i could do headphone stuff through the mixer as well, which i would need.
 
If you dont need the mixing features than get dedicated preamps. Dont pay for stuff you dont use.
 
This volume control issue of monitors is really bugging me. It seems that no one on this board uses passive preamps, or mixing board, or anything to control the volume.

I know a lot of people on this board use monitors but none of them seem to control the volume!

From how it looks it seems that an expensive passive preamp is the ONLY way to control the volume! But no one uses these passive preamps so what gives!

I'm not doubting you i'm sure it's the best way by far, but what the hell is everyone else doing?

For instance how do you control your monitors alfalfa, and which ones do you use?
 
ambi-
ive got outs from my card into one of the stereo inputs on the M8- (channel 9/10)- my old behringer mixer is in the other room- with the aux sends on the M8 to Behringer for headphones for the musicians- that also lets me control volume with the main sliders on the M8- befor i got my new mixer the outs from the card went straight to the monitors- (Event tr8 actives) if there is any degradation in quality, im too deaf to pick it up- if your terribly worried about that though- why not re-wire them when when your ready to mix down to bypass the mixer (if your usin the software "mixer")- works for me so far

jed-
i'd consider a mixer without the onboard effects- might open up cash for a nicer mixer- and those effects wont be any better than plugins on the puter- not ussually a good idea to record a wet signal anyway- once its altered its done- no goin back- track dry- add effects in the mix- 4 sub groups is nice to have but if your goin direct out of each channel most of the time the cheaper on with 2 subs is probably sufficient- keep in mind too that if the 1010 fitts your needs qaulity wise then plan on growing out of the Behringer- youll prob want something i little nicer in the future- it nice to have direct outs and inserts though- inserts are good for compressors / eq and stuff-

jeff
 
this is a good thread, but i agree with Ambi, I'm a little confused if the way that i'm doing it is the way that is the cleanest ie not disturbing the signal. I curently go from the microphones usually a mix of dynamic, and condenser mics, to my Mackie CFX 16. then i take the 4 subout channels and they run to a Delta 44 i/o box and then into the pc. I use the 4 outputs from the Delta in this manner... 1 and 2 got to some Event TR8 monitors, and the 3and 4 go to a Behringer powerplay pro headphone amplifier. I usually control the monitor level from either the main output slider in Sonar, or the main out slider in the delta control panel. I've seen where some people say that controling the level via the software is bad. I there a better way to do it? should i have the monitors hooked to the Mackie? Would that create any type of loop problems? Would i go from the delta to the main ins on the mixer? thanks !
Jason
 
Well it seems to be that going direct from your sound card and using the output faders of the computer digitally isn't ideal because you chop off some bits, but people say it's better than using the mixing board for controlling the volume because it's even less ideal.

Apparantly the only good way is to use a high quality passive preamp (basically a box with a volume knob).
 
I see your point about the FX on the mixer being no good... so would you suggest a used mackie or soundcraft or something off ebay?

I was also wondering about an Alesis 12R. I like the design, and it looks pretty nice...8 channels. Alesis is a pretty good brand; what do you think?

Jed
 
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hey there Jed,
If it were me, I save for the Mackie, a used one . I don't have one of the vlz pro ones and the preamps in them are supposed to be pretty good. I'm very happy with the older ones in my board. I've had good results with it. And it's really nice to have all the mic inputs should you decide you want them. Now if I can get one of those Delta 1010 cards, I'll be set!!
Have a good one, Jason
 
jed-
i dont really no anything about the alesis stuff-good or bad- and didnt mean to imply the effects were "no good"- just that for what your doin they probably wont be of much use to ya- and after all you are payin for it- chec out e-bay- nothin wrong with used as long as it was taken care of- i got my m8 for $550 out the door- new- mackie is nice too. look at it this way- if you buy a behringer now- out grow it and buy what some of the others (and my self suggest) your really buyin 2 mixers ( my old behringer is the headphone amp- so not a total waste) you got a real nice sound card- might as well use it to its fullest- there was a behringer mixer i was looking at befor i got my SC- the MX2642A- $250 from musicians friend- 8 mic pres- 4 subs and inserts on each (i think- double check that) and its rack mountable- worth a look see
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/prodindex.cfm?id=MX2642A&lang=eng

cya- jeff
 
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