Which mic should I use, and why are they different?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Speedy VonTrapp
  • Start date Start date
S

Speedy VonTrapp

New member
My apologies right off the bat here... I DID read the huge thread sticky here from Harvey. Absolutely amazing stuff, and it has really helped me a lot. But, one thing that I just don't understand, is the difference between my 2 microphones, and which one would be better to use?

I have a Shure SM58, and a Peavey PVM 22 Diamond.

I am using them to record vocals soon, and want to know which to pick, and why they act so differently. When using them live, it seems that the SM58 is much hotter than the Peavey.


Tech specs from Shure's site: (Not easy to find detailed specs like the Peavey.)

Frequency response tailored for vocals, with brightened midrange and bass rolloff

Uniform cardioid pickup pattern isolates the main sound source and minimizes background noise

Pneumatic shock-mount system cuts down handling noise

Effective, built-in spherical wind and pop filter

Supplied with break-resistant stand adapter which rotates 180 degrees

Lengendary Shure quality, ruggedness and reliability

Cardioid (unidirectional) dynamic

Tech specs from the Peavey site:
Features

* Diamond coated diaphragm
* Neodymium iron boron magnet
* Cardioid unidirectional polar pattern
* 20 dB (typical) front to back rejection
* 400 Ohms, balanced
* 50 Hz ~ 16 kHz frequency response
* Ultra-high sensitivity (-52dB)
* 140 dB maximum SPL
* Black rubberized paint finish
* Swivel adapter
* Protective pouch


They seem to be fairly similiar, but since I didn't really see all the tech stuff on the Shure site, I can't tell for sure. I assumed that they were pretty close to the same, but the the 58 seems to pick up a LOT more than the the Peavey does.

Is one, overall, better than the other for recording my vocal tracks?

Note: These are the mics I have to chose from, and cannot upgrade anytime soon. I'm ok with that for right now, I know I'm not shooting for the moon with my recordings. Pretty please save the "You need better gear" replies. I know it already. ;)

Thanks for any help!!

-Speedy
 
Hmmm... You're gonna be lucky to get away without any "you need better gear" posts, but here goes with one that's (hopefully) not.

Your mics are both small diaphragm cardioid dynamics, so the Big THread is probably not going to help you choose that much (kudos for reading it though). The choice here is really down to personal taste, and what you and others think sounds best for your voice. I would suggest recording a little bit of you singing the same song with each mic, burning it to CD and playing it on a bunch of stereos, in your car, in the local stereo shop's high end audio room, and see which sounds best. Play it to your friends and relatives if you're not sure. And use whichever sounds best.

That said, I think that it's a fairly shure thing (pun intended) that the sm58 will win. The 58 and its close relatives the 57 and beta58 have been used for loads of vocals on professionally recorded albums - Bono and Mick Jagger are examples of this that spring to mind. The Peavey will have been used on zero, or near to zero, major albums. Not because it's worthless, but because it's not well known and well loved, and on most voices probably doesn't sound as good as the ol' sm58. I'm pretty sure I have used this particular peavey model (my flatmate had one) and it made my voice sound like ass.

This opinion comes from someone who has used both mics, and owns both shure (2xsm57) and Peavey (PVM520i for kick/low brass/perc/vocals) mics.

Hope that helps,
Steve

P.S. I will not say that you need to upgrade, but I will say that you will notice a difference if you do, and you don't need to spend that much cash - $140US will get you a studio projects B1 and a behringer mixer with 2 mic amps and phantom power.:)
 
Thanks, Steve!

You have simultaneously helped me, and caused me a delima. I am now contemplating upgrading the way that you suggest. (Upgrade wasn't impossible, I just have money earmarked for other equipment, and not for recording right now.)

I am going to post a topic for Harvey in the Microphone forum, but, please, if you have any advice about what I should do after you read my topic in there about my delima, please post a reply, because I'll need the help with the decision.

Thanks again!

-Speedy
 
Speedy, there is nothing, repeat nothing wrong with starting recording with what you have. I got into recording with a roland VS840 8track, a crappy zoom drum machine and one sm57. Once I started recording acoustic guitar and realised the 57 sounded bad in that application, I bought a $20US sony battery-powered electret condensor mic, meant for plugging into a dictaphone to record lectures and interviews. It cost very little, and upgraded the sound I was getting a huge amount. I remixed the first track I did with that setup a month or so ago, and it was still a good song, the performances were still good, and the sound was really pretty good. Not professional, not up to what I can do now with increased experience and more gear (I've added a small mackie mixer, Rode NT1, Studio Projects C1, MXL603's, Peavey kick mic, some compressors and some monitor speakers), but good.

$140 is a cheap way of upgrading your vocal chain (and it'll do well for acoustic guitar, amp micing, and you could even try minimalist micing of a drum kit), but if it's earmarked for other music gear, spend it on other stuff, learn how to use what you've got, and start saving for recording gear. I added everything you see above one piece at a time (except for my pair of MXL603's) - mic, mic, comp, mic, monitors, mic, mic, comp over a couple of years. I've learned to use each piece as I've gotten it, and as a consequence, my stuff is getting better and better. So while I appreciate your dilema (I have had many like it) I'd say use what you have and save. Upgrading instruments etc is a good way of improving the sound of the recordings of yourself anyway!!!

Steve
 
Very very true. That was my initial thinking, but that's also why I'm in such a spot. I cannot picture myself becoming known as a guitar player, great, or otherwise. A singer, yes. Songwriter, good possibility. Guitar player extraordinaire? Probably never. The gear that I want amp wise, is a smaller version of what my guitar player already has. I can't see myself recording his parts anyway.

Shit, with the money that I've got saved so far for my guitar stuff, I could probably buy the mixer, the mic, an SM57, and/or maybe another piece of much needed equipment to really round out what I have for my recording setup. I'm sure I won't be pumping out stuff that would be getting a bunch of radio play, but with time, and practice, I'm also sure that I could put together a decent demo, one track at a time, and be pretty happy with what I end up with.

The recording equipment, for some reason, seems to be making me drool a bit more than the guitar equipment.

I've only got somewhere around $300-$500 saved for the $1500+ that I'd need for the guitar set up, and it will take me quite a while to end up with the full amount. I feel like I could drastically increase my output in a different way that I hadn't considered fully before.


(Plus, it would free up having to save for the guitar stuff right now, and money could go someplace else. I'm sure my wife would like that aspect of it, too. lol)

-Speedy
 
I should add speedy, that recommending behringer around here, I should be wearing a flame suit. But they are cheap, and sound not bad - better than the mic amps on a sound card by a long way. And they provide phantom power. And routing flexibility. And a headphone amp. If you wanted just a dedicated preamp, which will give you better mic preamps than a behringer mixer, the M-audio audio buddy is a 2 channel pre for around $80. But you don't get the headphone amp and routing flexibility that the mixer gives you. But I'd go for the mixer.

Steve
 
Well, I'm enough of a newbie around here that I can't tell much of the difference between a lot of the brands, anyway, even if I might understand spec differences on a certain item, I still wouldn't be able to say anything about behringer because I've never used one.

That said, I'm looking at the Behringer MX802A. It's got the phantom power, and mic pre's that you were talking about. Could someone explain the difference between that and the Yamaha MG 10/2, please? They seem to be pretty similiar, but the Yamaha is $20 more. They even look alike. (How many different ways can a 4 channel mixer look, I guess? heh)

Also, I looked for the Studio Projects Mic, but can't find it on Musicians Friend's site. The only B1 they have is a Behringer B1. In continuing my search, I found a couple of MXL mics.

One is the MXL V93M. It's a Large Diaphragm condenser. It's got "a 3-position switch that provides bass cut and a -10dB pad for additional recording options." It says that it's got a pre-amp in it already. Would that somehow interfere with the pre amp on the mixer? I don't quite understand that. The MXL V63M is another one near the same price, $20 cheaper. I don't know much about the name brands, other than Shure, so I don't know if it would be worth getting. Any help here would be appreciated.

Steve, it seems that I'll be upgrading the recording equipment. I've got around $300-$400 to spend. I think that I'd almost rather stick with somewhat inexpensive items, (like the Behringer mixer) and get 3-5 items, rather than upgrade the brand, and get only a mixer and 1 microphone. That, to me, seems like the direction I'd like to go with it. Is there another mic in the same qualilty and price range other than the studio projects mic? I know that I don't HAVE to buy it all from musiciansfriend.com, but if I can get it all in one place, cool. After the mixer and the mic, what would you suggest next to fill some holes? I'll probably get a mic stand or 2. I've got cables, so I'm not worried about that. Is there another mic that I should grab? Maybe a SM57 just because they have so many uses? Or, is there another piece of hardware that would be good for me, as far as my chain goes? I can post my equipment again here if that will help.

Thanks again,

-Speedy
 
I just can't stop changing my mind....

In looking for mixers and mics, I've come across so many options that I just don't know what to do. Here is what I am thinking now. (Note, this might change in 5 minutes. heh) I just don't know what's best for what I want to do, so I'm just going to have to take the plunge and stick with a decision soon.

I am thinking just get a better mixer, and a good mic, instead of spending less money per item, and getting more equipment, I am believing that I'll be better off getting more for my money by upgrading the quality of what I buy, and downgrading the quantity.

So, for a mixer, I'm thinking a Mackie.
DFX12 12x2 Mixer with EFX

It's $240, and I'm guessing I can get it at the music store near me, I've seen Mackie boards in there in the past.

Now, I just need to get a microphone. I'm looking in the $100 range. I've got a SM58, and a Peavey PVM 22 Diamond. I want something for vocals, and I'll mainly be recording rock music. Nothing screaming at all. There are sooo many mics to chose from out there. Can someone please give me some suggestions?

-Speedy
 
OK, here goes with answers to your questions (bear in mind these are not definitive!):

1 - The differences between the behringer and yamaha mixers are:
I've only seen one review of the yamaha, and that was basically about use for live sound. I've read many reviews of behringer mixers. From these reviews I've learned one thing, which is that for the price the preamps in the behringers are pretty decent. Yamaha have a long and illustrious history of making good live mixers and ground-breaking digital mixers for the price, but also have a reputation that the mic preamps are not so hot. But the new mixers (theMG series) probably have new mic preamps, so I can't really say.

The yamaha has insert points (a single jack that provides output from the preamp before its signal goes into the mixer part, and input back into the mixing part) on its first 2 channels. Inserts are a great way of patching in compressors, and also of getting the sound out from the preamp without having to pass through the eq (which will add noise). The behringer has not inserts.

The behringer has 2 aux sends (which could be used to send sounds to your soundcard) The yamaha also has 2, but you can only send the signal from a channel to one or the other . That shouldn't be a problem for you though.

Whichever one you choose, you'll end up with a decent mixer, but I haven't see much info on the preamps in the yamaha and they have a bad rep as a company when it comes to mic preamps.

2 - Studio projects mics - No, musiciansfriend don't have them. But loads of other retailers do. I'd recommend you shop around before buying anyway. Lots of sites will give you free shipping if you spend enough, and if you can buy, and some will price-match competitors. Brands in the sub $100 worth looking at include Studio Projects (B1), Marshall electronics (mxl2003 (which is the v93m I believe, the v63m I think is the mxl1006 which doesn't have a great reputation) or v67 (can be found for $80, a slightly coloured vocal mic which a lot of people here rave about), and Oktava 319 (quite dark-sounding, $99, works really well for some voices but not for others). Of them all, personally I'd go with the studio projects B1 (neutral sound, good on lots of sources) or the MXLv67 (more coloured sound, good on vocals and can easily be used for other sources).

3 - SM57. As great as they are, don't buy it. I have 2, and recommend them to a lot of people. But, you have the 58 which has the same capsule, and the sound is just modified a bit by the pop screen. So take the applications that people recommend the 57 for, and use the 58, either with the screen on, or with the screen screwed off.

And what would I do in your situation with the gear you have and $400 to spend?

- Studio Projects B1 - $80 - For vocals, amps, room mic, acoustic guit, and anything else! (Could substitute MXLv67 also $80)
- Behringer MX802a - $80 - gives you 4 mic pres and lotsa routing flexibility (Could substitute yamaha, newer Behringer UB series, or second hand mackie 1202 if you got lucky and found one really cheap!)
- 2 mic stands - $40
Total $200

If you want to track live drums
- 2x Behringer ECM8000's $80 (for overheads) and Audio Technica Pro25 $80 (for kick drum, bass amp, low brass, even vocals)
or
- 2x Marshall Electronics MXL603 $150 (for overheads) and use the B1 out the front of the kit to pick up the kick
Note that either set of overhead mics will be good on acoustic guitar, percussion, or as room mics for recording a band practice or concert or whatever
> $40 left over, could go on more stands, headphones, or be put towards saving for a compressor

If live drums is less of a priority
- FMR-audio RNC compressor - $175 - Really Nice Compressor - This is a great compressor that is much better than we have any right to expect for the $. You will most likely keep and use the RNC for the rest of your recording life. Can you tell I like mine? Virtually everyone here raves about them.

As always, YMMV, try before you buy if you can, and good luck,
Steve
 
Thanks for the continued replies, Steve! Your help is much appreciated.

I have a question concerning the setup for tracking drums.

Let's say I get the Behringer, a B1, and a couple of the mics for drum tracking. I get them all set up, and I'm ready to go, but I've still only got 4 channels to use. What should I do?

Assuming I've read well enough and remember what I've seen on the 'net:....

Assuming for now, I'm trying to track a 5 piece drum kit, I've got a mic on the kick, one on the 2 mounted toms, one on the snare, one on the lower tom. Couple of overheads, and probably a mic for the high hat, too.

That's a total of 7 mics, and I've only got a total of 4 tracks. eep! I don't really know what to do here. Would I simply adjust the number of mics that I'm using? 1 on the kick, one on the upper toms, one on the snare, and an overhead for a total of 4? That doesn't seem like the best way, but it might be the only thing I can do. Are there ways to manipulate the mixer so that I can get more in?

I'm just not sure what to do in that situation.

The worst part about me trying to track drums, is that my Lexicon card on my computer has 4 inputs, and 8 outputs on the box, and my recorder has 4 tracks, too. Theoretically, I suppose that I could shove 4 inputs into the computer, and 4 into the Yamaha MD4S, and then upload the Yamaha data afterwards, but I don't know if that will be a good idea.

Plus, to top it all off, I am a true "home" recorder. I do it all in the bedroom. Very low budget. (Note: for now! hehe) Now, I'll not be tracking a drum kit in the bedroom, of course. But my delima here is the noise from the computer. So far, I've only tracked to the Yamaha, then stream it to the computer into Cakewalk after the tracks are down. Otherwise, the mics make the computer sound like a jet engine. (Obvious problems, there.) That's why I don't like plugging right into the computer.

There is probably some sort of fix that I just don't know about yet for things like this. My first thought was, "damn, I'm screwed for tracking a drum kit," but since you commented on it, knowing that the 4 track would be all that I have, I'm hoping that there's a decent method for me to do what I want.

-Speedy
 
Drum micing is a complex beast, and there are a few ways of doing it. You can certainly get a good drum sound without micing every piece of the kit. I am also limited to 4 inputs at a time while tracking, and a couple of months ago I tracked live drums for about 7 tracks of the album I'm working on, and was very pleased with the results.

There are as many ways of micing a drum kit as there are people on this board I suspect, but here's a few of the usual suspects...

1) The single mic method - Best used for jazz/swing or ambient indie-rock. Move around the room with the drummer drumming, and listen with one ear (block the other one) for a spot where the kit sounds great and sounds balanced and where there's not too much reverberation. Put condensor mic there. Often a few feet out in front of the kit. Play with height of mic - lower for more kick, higher for more cymbals. Alternately try the "crotch mic" technique - I don't recommend placing your ear and therefore your nose near your drummer's croth, but you can put the mic at or near the drummer's crotch, facing the kit. Alternately, put it to the right of his right knee. Crotch/knee micing should give a tighter one-mic sound

2) 2 mics - several options. Use stereo pair of the same model condensor in X/Y or spaced pair configuration as you used the single mic above. Crotch micing may get a bit tight doing this. Probably better is using a single condensor for an overhead and a single dynamic on kick. Other freaky alternative I've heard of but not seen or done is to duct-tape 2 PZM mics to the drummer's chest!!!

3) Your 3 mics can be either stereo condensors for overheads (spaced or xy) and kick mic, or mono overhead condensor, snare mic and kick mic. I've done both.

4) This is what I used recently for the album tracks. Kick, snare, and a pair of overheads (spaced or xy, I used spaced).

Beyond this, you can add close mics to the toms, a hihat mic, room mics, mic up congas, rototoms or whatever, but simpler is definitely better when you're starting out. I'd recommend starting out with a 3-4 mic approach (you should be able to get 4 seperate signals out of the behringer via the main outs and control room outs or aux sends). You could also (if you buy loads of mics and have loads of time to experiment) use your 4track as a submixer, if you wanted to put a second mic on kick or mic up the toms, but that's likely to degrade your quality somewhat, and as I said, simpler is better to start with.

If you're doing metal or hard rock, you may find that you can't get the sound you want without close-micing all the drums. But otherwise, somewhere in those techniques you should find a winner. For the album tracks, I was actually extremely pleased with the sound we got from the toms, using only the overheads to pick them up (MXL603's as recommended above).

Micing drums is hard work though!

Steve
 
Speedy VonTrapp said:
So, for a mixer, I'm thinking a Mackie.
DFX12 12x2 Mixer with EFX

It's $240, and I'm guessing I can get it at the music store near me, I've seen Mackie boards in there in the past.
Click to expand...

If you don't need the 12 channels, you can get a 6-channel version for $189 from 8thstreet.com, among other places. But then there's the old controversy about whether or not Beringer is actually just a copy of Mackie...I'm not sure what to think. Some say the pre's are actually exactly the same, and others say Mackie pre's are superior in their quality, lack of noise, etc.
 
The DFX series are designed for live use and have lesser quality preamps as far as I'm aware. The mackie/behringer lawsuit I believe related to the 1202 micro series and its bigger brothers. Anyway, the quality of the pre's in the 1202 is one of the reasons that it costs $399 while the lowestDFX is $189

Steve
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top