Where are all the damn Audiophiles?????

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smellyfuzz

smellyfuzz

New member
As a new member, I find myself aggravated that so many of you members & hosts are so obliviois to how music really sounds & how to achieve it in reproduction.

Has anybody ever read a Shereophile or Absolute Sound Mag?

Has anyone ever listen to music in a highend store?
(and I do not mean the wiz or circut city)

Where are all the damn Audiophiles?????
 
Why are you so aggravated and what is your point!!!
What does reading a magazine have over actual application.
Are you some kind of expert who can share your own wordly expertise to us uninformed masses here at this BBS?
Before you criticize n-e 1 here,provide some d@mn examples of what your'e trying to come across with.
Peace!
 
1 more thing smellyfuzz, Can you post this EXACT same
question in the "Dragon's Cave" forum. Just curious to see as to what kind of response you will get!
Peace 2-fingers!
 
I've always thought of an Audiophile as someone who listens to music on super expensive, and often obscure consumer hi-fi equipment. Speaker cable that costs $1000 per foot, CD-Players for a few grand that few can tell the difference in sound, if any at all.

This site is about recording music. Not sitting back on the couch listening to the end product - well it's about that to but the emphasis is on the recording/mixing aspect.

For your first post you certainly like to generalize. Exactly what information are you looking for?
 
Actually I think of an audiophile as someone who tries extrememly hard to make certain that the playback they're hearing is 100% true. It's almost exactly the same thing as say a recording or mastering engineer but from the other side of the picture.

I've gotten a lot of help from "audiophiles" in regards to speakers/monitors...and they talk about the same things we do (e.g. flat response curve, etc)...often times even more in depth.

However, I don't understand what smellyfuzz is getting at. Everyone here is interested in natural sound reproduction. that's the whole purpose of this site. I think you might be a bit backwards....audiophile magazines tend to gear towards output of a finished product, where as, say, recording magaznines would gear towards capturing an accurate representation of their source. They are completely related, but completely different.

Part of me wants to think that you're joking however.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Check your reference plane

Creating music, recording music and listening to same are three different endeavors.
I loved my DCMs. I would love to have my Buddy's Quads with his Hafler amp system. But NONE of that shit is necessary to produce great music that you'd love to listen to on these systems. So what's YOUR point? The Event monitors are enough to get a reproducible mix from the content on my Hard Drive.
 
smellyfuzz, as an old member, I find myself amazed at your inability to spell...gibs
 
It so simple ...

Not to point out the obvious, but the reason there's not many audiophiles at homerecording.com is because it's not an audiophile site ... it's a home recording site.

If you're looking for info on high-end consumer audio equipment ... you might get some here if you post a specific question (believe it or not ... there are some smart cookies here). Otherwise, it might be best to find a site/bbs more suited to what you're looking for. Don't get aggravated ... you may just be looking in the wrong place ... which is certainly not our fault.

Good Luck!
 
umm...

What the hell are you talking about? Listening to Ricky Martin on your hi-Fi system may give you your jollies, but we (the "obliviois to how music really sounds" members of this BBS) are concerned with real world situations. WE DO NOT MAKE MUSIC FOR AUDIOFILES (or for screaming teenage girls like yourself) Why don't you get off your Lazy-boy, and away from your precious Hi-Fi audio system and go see a live show. Go see some real people sweating and bleeding and playing their hearts out. Or would the loud speakers not be quality enough for you? I bet a little feedback would have you crying over your ears for weeks.

Well, you stereotyped me, so now I've stereotyped you. Not very fair is it?

What I really want to know is "how music really sounds and how to achieve it in reproduction." You obliouly know the answer but feel that we are too lowly and unworthy and too stupid to understand. Piss off man.

-jhe
 
I get Stereophile, and guitar world.

Stereophile is about equipment, that allmost no one can afford, so what's the point. I think the guys that write the reviews are some of the biggest blowhards Iv'e ever read.

Also if high end speakers are so perfect, why do they all sound so different, there can only be one correct reproduction of sound, everything else is just production!

Guitar World is a lot more fun to read, not as many snobs.

Please reply.
 
"Audiophiles", by and large, don't tend to hang around music production people for long. They tend to get told about the emperor's clothes in no uncertain terms, repeatedly and with great vigor- and since it is a religious thing, there's no rapproachment possible.

When I had my first studio back in the early '80s, one of my collaborators regarded himself as an audiophile. At the time, I thought that that would be a good combination: get a set of golden ears, with a bunch of golden-ears buddies, to help optimize the signal path, chase all the gnarlies out, and generally advance the state of the art. I was young and naive at the time... I'm an electrical engineer by day, and I've been a member of the AES since '81. Still, I was willing to give the "you can't measure it, but I can still hear it" crowd a chance. Maybe they were on to something.

What a mistake. After a couple years of ripping *all* the equipment apart, replacing all the electrolytic DC blocking caps with nonpolar polyester film, ripping out half of the interconnects and replacing it with Litz wire made of dozens of carefully braided parallel strands of mil-spec silver plated Teflon insulated oxygenfree 32awg wire-wrap wire, and doing all manner of other bizarre incantations that incidentally cost a few thousand of my hard-earned shekels: I ended up with a studio that still sounded just like signal squashed onto magnetic tape.

It didn't sound materially better: in fact, it didn't sound materially different to me at all. And I was writing the checks, so I had every reason to want it to work. We did improve a few low-end pieces of gear a little, mostly in the noise floor. This was mostly a "me" thing, done by using better matched metal film Rs' in places that made sense _to me_ in the feedback paths, or by improving shielding and magnetic leakage by changing out E-core power transformers for toroidals, or by chasing out ground loops.

The audiophile brigade seemed to consider this to be below their dignity, concentrating themselves instead with the veiling of the 11-11.25kHz band by those horrible tantalum caps, and the utter destruction of the ever-so-important 25-37kHz response on the monitors by the skin effect of the speaker wires. Inexplicably, they also seemed to be completely unaware of the existence of ground loops (which at their worst were only about 50dB down at 60 and 120Hz), or at least unwilling to acknowledge that these issues were either bad in some way, or solvable by mortal man... But in the final analysis, most of what they sweat and toiled over was just expensive floobydust.

However, one day my collaborator and his golden-eared buddies were going through spasms of nearly orgasmic happiness listening to the beautiful clarity of the Litz-wire connections between the monitor power amp and the monitors themselves, running one of my 2-track masters back and forth at 30ips until the head became crusty with oxide. They were in hog heaven, and spent the better part of an hour explaining to me in detail the *wonderful* things that they could hear that I clearly couldn't, and asking me how I could function as a recording engineer with such a fatal handicap. This went on and on, until I pointed out that the silly wirewrap stuff hadn't been long enough to reach from the new amp rack location when I'd moved it earlier in the week. I had subsequently substituted in good old 14AWG black power cable from the local Ace Hardware, and *that* was the magical spaker interconnect they were now raving about. The Litz wire was in the trash.

They went and peered in the back of the amp rack: sure enough, old black rubbery shit. They left and didn't come back, and I probably wouldn't have let them in if they had.

Which led me to my conclusion: the difference between an audiophile and a recording engineer is that the audiophile doesn't really have to hear it to declare it to be bad. On the other hand, the recording engineer really does have to hear it to declare it to be *good*. Simple as that, in my experience. And I now want to see measurements, dammit, and all the psychoacoustic floobydust can go pound sand.

[Edited by skippy on 08-15-2000 at 21:00]
 
hehehe.

In a completely unrelated topic, the phrase "smellyfuzz" brings strange pictures to my mind. ;)
 
...that was awesome.


later i might tell you haw to do the "playing backwards" trick.


you just need four chestnuts, a glass of motor oil and a piece of string.
 
oh yes C7sus - once again you leave me suspended waiting for the f...!! good one. :D
 
Ignorance is Bliss

Hi Skippy,thanks for your interesting story.I'll freely admit I've never heard of some of the stuff you mentioned in it,and from the outcome of the tale,I'm glad that this is the case.To me,any and all recorded music is a seperate entity from live music and the most successful recordings to me are those that take this reality into account. I've always felt that it's a good thing to strive for excellence in the reproduction of music,but it's erroneous to attempt to have a live music experience with an amp and speakers.But it takes all kinds to make a world,and as long as there are people who can rationalize and afford spending the price of a small house on hi-fi gear,there will be those who will gladly build it and write about it.For me,when I listen on my modest system,I'm trying to get at the heart of why the artist felt it was important to make that recording with full understanding and acceptance of the limitations of the medium I'm hearing through,and I can live with that.And it saves me money on cable!
 
Re: Ignorance is Bliss

virtual.ray wrote: Hi Skippy, thanks for your interesting story. I'll freely admit I've never heard of some of the stuff you mentioned in it, and from the outcome of the tale, I'm glad that this is the case.

Oh, yes indeed. I wish that I'd never heard of some of it: it's like learning to see the cue dots while watching movies, or learning the sound of a tape splice made with a razor blade that wasn't properly demagnetized. That's the sort of knowledge that messes with your mind...

Background: in the late '70s and early '80s, one particular camp of activist audiophiles took it upon themselves to preach the gospel of "DC blocking caps are bad". These weren't the kind that write nasty equipment reviews: they had soldering irons, and they weren't afraid to use them.

Nerd talk follows. In circuit design, designers often build gain stages that have different DC operating points. To couple the output of one stage to the input of the next, you pass the signal through a capacitor: it passes the AC component that you care about, and blocks the DC component so that the two stages do not attempt to debias one another (which sometimes lets the Magic Smoke out). You size the cap so that the low frequency rolloff caused by the RC highpass filter you just built (cap value vs. driving point impedance) is below the frequency band of interest, yadda yadda. No big deal- it is (or used to be, anyway) first year EE stuff.

These days, most designers are more comfortable designing DC-coupled equipment (because of the ready availability of monolithic opamps that really make it pretty easy to do). This just ties gain stages together with a piece of wire, and eliminates those caps. It used to take a lot more circuitry to do direct-coupled, but since that's now all included inside those little multilegged platic things, it's no longer too expensive to consider... But that's fast-forwarding a couple of decades.

Now, as with all ideas run amok, there is more than a little truth to the "blocking caps are bad" idea. The temptation certainly exists to use an electrolytic capacitor for the DC blocking function: they tend to be very small for their values, relative to dry types. However, the ones you can afford to use in a commercial design are polar: they have a very definite + and - end, and biasing them up in reverse polarity leads to some problems. And they exhibit a hysteresis curve when you pass large signals: i.e., if you crank big voltage swings through them with no feedback, they actually can be shown to induce significant and measurable harmonic distortion.

There, I said it: if you're a freakin' screwup, you can design equipment with higher-than-necessary distortion numbers by using them. True fact, not in question. Now, you can also control this problem by decent circuit design practices. Many, if not most, of the most revered pieces of recording and reproduction equipment did and still do use good old gnarly nasty electros for this function. However, that was regarded as beside the point by the anointed. The bunch of crazies I let into my room decided that if any of them were bad, they must *all* be bad.

This was also the time in which wet-slug tantalum electrolytics were really beginning to come down in price, and be used a lot. This variation of the electrolytic capacitor is part of what has made miniaturization of modern gear possible: they pack an obscene amount of surface area into a teensy package, letting really big caps be put into really small places. The audiophile brigade immediately announced that they could be *heard* ("They induce a certain distinct graininess in the 11-11.25 kHz range, you putz!"), and away they went.

Of course, I shouldn't have been suprised. These guys would look through bins of components with a magnet, trying to find resistors and capacitors with pure copper leads (instead of copper-plated steel), since they could "hear the ringing cause by the inductance of the steel leads"). Good luck, dudes: essentially _all_ modern big ol' components have steel leads, so that they won't fall off the board if you shake it.

Sigh.

What followed was a two-year jihad against the electrolytic capacitor (and especially the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned tantalum!) carried out on the battlefield of my control room. I ended up with some equipment that was pretty ugly on the inside: replacing a little 1/4" teardrop tantalum with a fist-size polyester film cap in parallel with a little teeny mica cap (with copper leads, of course, for "transparency on the high end"). My compressors looked like they'd developed tumors, or something. I should have been a lot more bastardly in insisting on seeing the circuit design calculations. Hell, I shoulda had my _head examined_.

The speaker wire thing was much the same, but I've had enough sadistic necropheliac bestiality for one day: which is to say, enough beating the dead horse, already. Anyway, I'm quite convinced that these guys were hearing the voices of the angels, and their shared delusion was a sight to behold. It was also one of the major reasons that I sold the studio, stopped designing audio gear, stopped playing music at all, and went off to do other things with my life: I couldn't freakin' _stand_ it.

So now I'm getting back in after well over a decade on vacation from music. I'm glad to hear that those jihads have been abandoned. Presumably, the fashions have changed and the audiophiles have found something else to chase down: I can damned near smell the smoke, already. And you can bet your buns that whatever it is, I'll *ignore it*!
 
Kramer vs.Kramer

Hey Skippy,glad your coming back to the music.There's an article in the new issue of "Electronic Musician"which chronicles the adventures of Eddie Kramer doing a mixdown session with some recording students in attendance.For those who may not know,Mr.Kramer engineered almost all of the released recordings of Jimi Hendrix as well as having worked with Led Zeppelin and Kiss.Anyway,it's a fun article;at one point he had 'em set up a speaker and a power amp and a 414 in the stairwell for reverb!Check it out.Cheers!
 
Great story skippy. I made the mistake in another thread of trying to argue that it’s just not worth it for folks to spend so much of their time and money on fancy cables. Well, the venom started to fly. You can’t argue with peoples religion. And never underestimate the power of the placebo.

On the other hand, let’s not forget that there are many things that really do make a difference - most significantly Transducers. Mics and monitors have very hearable and very measurable differences. I can talk mostly about loudspeakers. Even for the very best of the best, the percentages of harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, compression, etc are measured in whole numbers (1,2,5,10% !) as opposed to the multi decimal place specs of most other components. This is not even accounting for huge effects of the room you put them in.

I think too many in recording discount the importance of monitoring. We may spend a lot of time finding that perfect microphone position, but how do we know we’re not just tweaking out some peculiarity of our monitors or listening position? Also, if someone’s monitors have say 6” woofers and only effectively go down to 60Hz, how in the world does he tweak the bottom end? Trust that the spectrum analyzer has good musical taste, I guess? It’s like flying blind
 
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