What's with mono drum room mics?

[RecordingMaster]

Hey there!

Just wondering why I hear people talk about mono room mics on drums...Every single time I try to use a mono drum room mic track with the rest of the drums closed mic'ed and stereo overheads, when i blend in the room mic panned in the center, it smears the stereo image quite vastly. Even if everything's been time-aligned and everything's in phase. Reason being is VERY simple: you pan you OH tracks to the left and right (how hard depend on how wide you want). I usually go 60 R / 60 L, for a more natural stereo image. Then I pan (and I'd hope most would do this too) the tom close mics to where I can hear them in the stereo image of the OH's. This way you're getting the most accurate stereo image reproduction. Of course, snare and kick are centered.

Soooooo......when I go to bring in a mono room mic straight up the center, now suddenly there is a copy of every single drum and cymbal all in the center of the stereo field. So it doesn't affect the kick or snare, but now all the prestine stereo imaging and beautiful natural sounding kit I have, is now getting smeared because of the room mic. It makes perfect sense.

I see a room mic as something you blend to add some ambiance and some extra body/beef to your drum tone. It shouldn't be obvious to hear it like "Oh there's the room mic right there in the center". Same story with any close mic. The close mics should support and reinforce the stereo image from OH's, but not come in out of no where like "Oh, there's the obvious tom mic right there".

So, why would any one ever use a mono room mic? When I try to use it, even gently, I can still hear the different tonality the room mic has captured because it's separate from where everything else is in the stereo spread. If it were stereo room mics (which I don't have enough inputs to do at the moment), then I'd imagine you'd pan them the same as your overheads or perhaps even just a tad wider and blend to taste - at which point it wouldn't be super obvious because their image is spread out and getting along well with the rest of your stereo image.

Sorry about the long rant, but I am just wondering if you'd agree or if you're doing something to make the stereo image not be smeared (like perhaps using a ribbon figure eight and splitting them into 2 tracks, reversing one's phase and panning R and L). Please no suggestions to record with a mono OH!! That's just lazy imo, and it's not for me. I'll pan them to the center later if I want a mono kit. This thread isn't necessarily a problem needing fixing, it's just the truth and me wondering why the heck anyone would want to do that.

 

[mjbphotos]

I agree! I too pan the kit like you mention. I think if your (mono) room mic is pulling everything to the center, it's picking up more direct sound from the kit than the 'room' (ambiance).

 

[WhiteStrat]

I concur. I pan like you describe (but even wider on the OHs). I find that the only room mic setup that works with the mix (instead of against it) is a stereo pair, set far left and far right in my room, about 12-14 feet away. Then I use those tracks panned like the OHs--but oh so sparingly.

 

[grimtraveller]

wondering why the heck anyone would want to do that.

I guess it's all about what a person wants, the kind of music they sometimes record and their influences. There are some that will go for a mono drum kind of effect even though there's a slight stereo spread.
There were some interesting drum recording developments in the 60s and early 70s. These, granted, often occurred because of the technical limitations of the times as well as the kind of experimentation that came about through wanting to break existing barriers but while some of those developments have been abandoned, many of the ways they recorded back then at least yielded interesting results. And though there is a more standardized way of recording drums nowadays, not everyone necessarilly adheres to it all the time. If you liked some of the drum sounds and placing of yesteryear, you're perhaps more likely to try out some of the techniques that you see as weird.

 

[RAMI]

Just as a side-question....I've never understood why people don't pan their overheads 100%. How can it seem un-realistic unless the mics were placed in an un-realistic fashion? I thatought the reason one uses 2 mics is to get a stereo representation of what the mics are hearing. If the stereo image sounds "too wide", then move the mics in closer, no? If neither mic was placed "outside" the perimeter of the kit, how can it sound wider than it really is?

Maybe I don't get it because I use the Glyn Johns method, which places both mics well inside the perimeter of the kit, so I've never heard what "un-realistically wide" sounds like. Seems to me that even if I did want it to sound like the drummer's arms are 5 feet long, I'd actually have trouble accomplishing that.

 

[MG Eddie]

Personally I never really thought of panning oh's, I just mic'ed everything that I needed and that was that. The only reason I can think of someone wanting to record in mono aside from their equipment is trying to replicate a mic 60's sound.
What if your like me and record with a mic on the kick, snare and 2 oh's to capture the toms and cymbals, should the oh's still be panned and treated like stereo or just left mono as they are?

 

[RAMI]

Personally I never really thought of panning oh's, I just mic'ed everything that I needed and that was that.
What if your like me and record with a mic on the kick, snare and 2 oh's to capture the toms and cymbals, should the oh's still be panned and treated like stereo or just left mono as they are?

Why would you use 2 mics to only pan both of them to the centre. Why not just use one "overhead"? And I put "overheads" in quotations because I don't think you're really using them as overheads. You're using them as tom and cymbal mics, as you describe them. Overheads are meant to capture the whole kit, not just the toms and cymbals. 80-90% of your sound should be the overheads, including the snare. If you're just pointing 2 "overheads" wherever, without at least lining them up to be equal distance from the snare, then that snare is going to be out of phase, especially if they're both going mono up the middle.

I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong (not saying it's right either), but you're not really using your "overheads" as overheads.

 

[RecordingMaster]

Just as a side-question....I've never understood why people don't pan their overheads 100%. How can it seem un-realistic unless the mics were placed in an un-realistic fashion? I thatought the reason one uses 2 mics is to get a stereo representation of what the mics are hearing. If the stereo image sounds "too wide", then move the mics in closer, no? If neither mic was placed "outside" the perimeter of the kit, how can it sound wider than it really is?

Maybe I don't get it because I use the Glyn Johns method, which places both mics well inside the perimeter of the kit, so I've never heard what "un-realistically wide" sounds like. Seems to me that even if I did want it to sound like the drummer's arms are 5 feet long, I'd actually have trouble accomplishing that.

I use a spaced pair (and carefully make sure they're equidistant from snare, ensure they're in phase with snare, etc) because of my kit's layout and my preference. I don't place them too wide. If I use my snare and kick as a center line, I place each overhead on each side, right in the middle, if that makes sense. So on the right side, I place the right OH in the middle of the right side, and vice versa on left. Spaced pair yields the widest results which give ME the most flexibility. So If I want em super wide, I can pan em like that. If I want em super close, I can do that, if I want em natural sounding, you get it. If I were to do a Glyn John's (which I'm not bashing), I wouldn't have the capability of making it super wide, even if I wanted to (like you describe in your case).

Each way you mic your OH's (xy, spaced, ortf, etc) yeilds either a wider, narrower or most natural stereo spread. Check out this link, it's really cool as it shows pictures and even sound samples of how different OH methods yield different stereo spreads. Comparing overhead drum miking techniques | recording hacks

Here's a pic of my kit from bird's eye view. If I were to bring the mics in closer (you can't see em), I'd be getting wayyy too much hi tom and ride in the OH's (proximity) and barely no 2nd floor tom or china, etc. I want everything in the OH's to be equally as loud as I'm hitting it, and not have certain elements too quiet only because I didn't capture them well in the mics.

 

[RAMI]

I use a spaced pair (and carefully make sure they're equidistant from snare, ensure they're in phase with snare, etc) because of my kit's layout and my preference. I don't place them too wide. If I use my snare and kick as a center line, I place each overhead on each side, right in the middle, if that makes sense. So on the right side, I place the right OH in the middle of the right side, and vice versa on left. Spaced pair yields the widest results which give ME the most flexibility. So If I want em super wide, I can pan em like that. If I want em super close, I can do that, if I want em natural sounding, you get it. If I were to do a Glyn John's (which I'm not bashing), I wouldn't have the capability of making it super wide, even if I wanted to (like you describe in your case).

Each way you mic your OH's (xy, spaced, ortf, etc) yeilds either a wider, narrower or most natural stereo spread. Check out this link, it's really cool as it shows pictures and even sound samples of how different OH methods yield different stereo spreads. Comparing overhead drum miking techniques | recording hacks

Here's a pic of my kit from bird's eye view. If I were to bring the mics in closer (you can't see em), I'd be getting wayyy too much hi tom and ride in the OH's (proximity) and barely no 2nd floor tom or china, etc. I want everything in the OH's to be equally as loud as I'm hitting it, and not have certain elements too quiet only because I didn't capture them well in the mics.

Everything you're saying makes sense. But you might have mis-understood my point. Or maybe I mis-understood yours. I was questioning why someone would place their mics wide, and then narrow the stereo field in mixing. I was also wondering how something would supposedly sound "un-natural" if the mics weren't placed "un-naturally" wide to begin with.

 

[sam humans]

What's your room like? Is it treated at all? Over the years I've found that a poor sounding room, therefor a poor sounding room mic, does exactly as you describe and smears the stereo image. The best solution I found was building some quadratic diffusers. Really brings most rooms into a manageable place, reflections wise. Now, when I bring up my room mic, it gives me that pleasant sense of space and depth that close mic'ing lacks.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I used to pan the overheads 100% left and right without thinking about it, until one day someone asked why.
That made me realise I didn't have an answer and I just hadn't thought it about it.

Now I put some thought into what I'm trying to create. A realistic live sounding performance, or whatever.
I place them accordingly now, but 9 times out of 10 for a band or whatever, the overheads find themselves about 50% left and 50% right.

 

[RAMI]

I used to pan the overheads 100% left and right without thinking about it, until one day someone asked why.
That made me realise I didn't have an answer and I just hadn't thought it about it.

You could have answered that it's because that's what stereo is.

9 times out of 10 for a band or whatever, the overheads find themselves about 50% left and 50% right.

Why?

 

[RAMI]

You could have answered that it's because that's what stereo is.


Why?

Just to clarify what I'm asking (sorry Recording Master, I don't mean to hi-jack your thread, but we sort of got spun-off in this direction)....

Let's say you have a spaced pair of mics on your kit, both mics equal distance from the snare and kik. For starters, you don't have to worry about the kik and snare being "too wide", obviously, because they're going to be right in the middle. It's the toms and hi-hats/cymbals that have a possibility of sounding too wide.

But if the mic on your left is 4' away from your floor tom on the opposite side...and the mic on your right is 4' away from your hi-hats/first tom on the opposite side....then why/how would the kit end up sounding any wider than 4', which is about the regular width of a kit? I would think that if someone's sitting at their speakers that are 4' apart from each other, they'd get a perfect representation of the width of the kit in the room if you panned the mics 100% to each side, no?

Why would someone take the time tp place mics and get a stereo image, only to distort that stereo image by over-lapping the 2 sides in mixing?

I put as many sentences as I could in the form of a question because I'm not "challenging" anyone for an answer. I'm asking because there might be an answer that will make me go "Right, I didn't think of that". But I've asked these questions a few times over the years and never get an answer. It's a conspiracy I tell you!

 

[Steenamaroo]

You could have answered that it's because that's what stereo is.


Why?

IDK if you're just doin devil's advocate for fun or if you're really asking, but quite often I try to create a realistic space.

In a real room or hall you hear the drums in stereo, sure, but it's not so extreme that different drums are heard clearer by the left or right ear.

Depending how you mic up, a drum roll could traverse the 'sonic landscape'. There's nothing wrong with that, but I usually don't want it.

I find 40-60% each way sounds much more natural than extreme panning.

Plus, there might be other instruments that I want to sit wider than the kit. Maybe shakers, light harmonies, whatever.
There's also the whole thing that if you start off at 100% you can't get any better.

Bumping up to 70% each way for a chorus can have a much bigger transitional effect than you'd think. (Not you specifically)
I've tied the master to 50/50 before just so I could break it open for the chorus.
No idea if that's advised or not, but I liked it!

 

[RAMI]

IDK if you're just doin devil's advocate for fun or if you're really asking,

A bit of both, but as you can see by my post right after, I am serious about the question.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I put as many sentences as I could in the form of a question because I'm not "challenging" anyone for an answer. I'm asking because there might be an answer that will make me go "Right, I didn't think of that". But I've asked these questions a few times over the years and never get an answer. It's a conspiracy I tell you!

Ah. I didn't see that.
You're bang on about kick and snare; They're remain central as long as panning is equal each way.


To answer your question, take your kit miced with overheads 4' each side of the snare.

Say for simplicity's sake the floor tom is 4' to the right of the snare. IE directly under one overhead.
The tom will sound like it's coming from that overhead much more than the other.

Now if you bring the two mics in to 2' either side of the snare, the closest mic has become farther away from the tom, and the farthest mic has become closer to the tom.

The tom will now sound much closer to centre.

 

[Steenamaroo]

OK, I'm sorry I asked.

?????

 

[RAMI]

Depending how you mic up, a drum roll could traverse the 'sonic landscape'. There's nothing wrong with that, but I usually don't want it.

Plus, there might be other instruments that I want to sit wider than the kit. Maybe shakers, light harmonies, whatever.

OK, that's fine, but those are "mix decisions" not based on what's more natural sounding, but what sounds better for the particular song.

There's also the whole thing that if you start off at 100% you can't get any better.

I don't get that one.

Bumping up to 70% each way for a chorus can have a much bigger transitional effect than you'd think. (Not you specifically)
I've tied the master to 50/50 before just so I could break it open for the chorus.
No idea if that's advised or not, but I liked it!

I never tried that. But again, those are all cool techniques, but they don't address how panning 2 mics 100% will make anything sound wider than the distance of those mics.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I apologize, sometimes it's hard to transfer something from my brain to my fingers.

 

[RAMI]

?????

Word.

 

[Steenamaroo]

No, it's cool man. Those last things you quoted weren't an answer to your main question. Sorry, I didn't see your question till afterwards.
Crossed posts dude.



Your asking about a realistic representation and why I think 100% panning doesn't provide that?

It all comes back to the listeners perspective. Really if you want your mixed drums to sound like they would in a room, then you wouldn't even use overheads. You'd really have to position the mics where a listeners ears would be, and pointing the same way they would.

The fact that overheads are very close to a kit (comparatively) means that they will create an exaggerated stereo image. That's why I find tighter panning sounds more natural.

What you do and what you're describing will give a closer representation of what the drummer hears.

Don't get me wrong though, I have no criticism of anything here. Just chipping in.