What would you buy first.

[Chris Jahn]

Im thinking my next two major purchases are going to be a high quality outboard pre or two (different kinds for differnt flavors) and a summ box.

I guess what im wondering is "if you could only get one of the two things" which of you out there would get what first in terms of a device thats goin to really help the sounds progress.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Hands down, the mic pre(s) first.

Get it right in tracking first, and the mixing will virtually take care of itself. Quality summing would be just nuts on homemade hot fudge tracking.

Get only average tracking, and even the best summing will still only be summing average-sounding tracks. It'd be like putting nuts on plain frozen yogurt tracking.



G.

 

[SonicAlbert]

It's really hard to answer your question without knowing what you are currently using. What preamps and mixer are you using now?

 

[Chris Jahn]

Im using the stock pres in the presonus firepods, there not bad, but there pretty "in the middle" And i dont use a mixer, i mix entirely in Logic.

I cant give you the specs on my computer right off the top of my head, but i use a brand new (everything and the kitchen sink) Macbook pro, and a Glyph external hard drive for the 7200 speed needed.

 

[Chris Jahn]

Let me put it another way, ive got middle of the road everything, but im learning to use it all pretty well. Middle of the road pre-pack Audix drum mic package, the firepods, an sm57,an sm58, an mxl 9000 tube vocal mic ($200 special) decent cables, a senneiser e609s, various pedals and toys, lots of amps and guitars, a very nice dw drum set, a line6 re-amper (never used it for that though), the stock plug-ins that come with Logic Express, Krk rockit 5 monitors etc....

All of this works fine and is getting me throught the day, so whats a smart "next level" piece of gear that will propel me forward, a better vocal mic? pre amps? the summ box? somethng i havnt thought of? i want to choose wiesly and not buy gimicky toys.

 

[NL5]

Let me put it another way, ive got middle of the road everything, but im learning to use it all pretty well. Middle of the road pre-pack Audix drum mic package, the firepods, an sm57,an sm58, an mxl 9000 tube vocal mic ($200 special) decent cables, a senneiser e609s, various pedals and toys, lots of amps and guitars, a very nice dw drum set, a line6 re-amper (never used it for that though), the stock plug-ins that come with Logic Express, Krk rockit 5 monitors etc....

All of this works fine and is getting me throught the day, so whats a smart "next level" piece of gear that will propel me forward, a better vocal mic? pre amps? the summ box? somethng i havnt thought of? i want to choose wiesly and not buy gimicky toys.

Well, you are up against the law of diminishing returns. Once you have decent gear, upgrading one thing here or there is going to help for sure, but, it's not gonna be a huge leap. The MOST important thing you can do for your recordings is play well, and have great sounding gear. It sounds like you probably have that covered. The next most important thing, IMHO, is the Mic. I would think about getting either one great mic, or a pair of pretty good mic's. I have AT 4033's that are about $400 new. Even at that level, they don't come close top my Geffel UM92's. Every person that comes here and records vocals is blown away when I click th monitor button in cubase. You can hear a gnat fart on the other side of the room (and I have a big room).

Also, depending on your tracking room, money may best be spent getting the room up to snuff.

edit - and back to the law of diminishing returns - unfortunately you won't really appreciate a great mic until you have a great room, a great preamp, and some great converters - and that is gonna cost a ton - and it still won't be as big of a jump as it should be considering how much it will cost.......as they say, you spend 95% of your money to get that last 5%......

 

[SonicAlbert]

Okay, I don't want to be too hard on you, but what you have is not middle of the road, it's low end. Most of the audio gear you list is really budget prosumer stuff. I don't blame you for wanting to kick it up a notch.

It's hard to know where to start because ideally a recording setup works together as a unit. It's only as good as its weakest link. So upgrading a piece here or there really isn't going to give you the desired results, at least until you have the whole thing upgraded.

The key is to have a long range plan. This way, as you add pieces to the puzzle you do it with a vision and an idea of what you are looking for long term. With a plan you end up frittering away your money here there and everywhere, and end up pretty much where you started.

You are not even close to the law of diminishing returns in my opinion. When every piece of gear in your studio is approximately $1,000 a channel, then we can talk diminishing returns. But even then there is room for upgrading.

I'd say start at the beginning of the signal chain and work your way down. So a really good mic or two, as in don't even think about spending less than $1,000-1,500 per mic. Then go for a high quality preamp. Finally, finish off the front end with a two channel converter along the lines of the Apogee Rosetta 200, Universal Audio 2192 (what I have), or Lavry Blue, for example.

Then once you've gotten your front end to a better place, start looking at mixing options. But that's further down the line. And also, mixing gets a lot easier when you are recording better tracks!

The reason I'm giving you these kinds of numbers like "$1,000 per channel" is to give you a realilty check. This is the kind of money you need to spend to get a worthwhile improvement. Any less is really just a side-grade and not worth it.

 

[Chris Jahn]

that makes sense, its a decent aproach and kinda the one i had in mind, basically improve your "input" and work toward the end from there.

On a specific note, the two chanels like the rosetta, this is a two channel interface im assuming (i guess ill just look it up) but why jsut the two, why not an interface with more inputs or are we talkin about something entirely differnt.

And also, is the stuff i have really that bad? I tried to make some decent descisions up front with some good research, and droped about 8 to $9000 by the time i had every last boom stand, mic clip and pop filter. Just to have what i do have, and now i feel like i wasted that cash on "prosumer" junk.

OR......were the choices i made decent choices for a new guy?

 

[NL5]

And also, is the stuff i have really that bad? I tried to make some decent descisions up front with some good research, and droped about 8 to $9000 by the time i had every last boom stand, mic clip and pop filter. Just to have what i do have, and now i feel like i wasted that cash on "prosumer" junk.

OR......were the choices i made decent choices for a new guy?

IMHO, it's not that bad. You can do decent work with it. But as I said above, and Sonic Albert said - it's tough to really upgrade w/o upgrading everything. Guitar center has people believing that if the spend 10k on gear, they can make a great recording - but, it's not that easy. Most people would be way money ahead just going to a real studio and dropping 5-10k and an album, and would get stellar results. Your recordings are very good for what they are - to take them to a pro level is gonna take a lot of time on your part, and a lot more in gear. You just have to decide if it's worth it or not. Just as a reference, I am basically one step above a "homerecording" type person - I record in my home, but I have pretty top notch gear - certainly not a true PRO studio - and, I have spent almost as much on cabling as your entire studio budget. Read my post above about the law of diminishing returns. Oceanway or somewhere similar probably spent as much as my whole studio cost just for their cabling.

 

[zed32]

. . . I have spent almost as much on cabling as your entire studio budget. Read my post above about the law of diminishing returns. Oceanway or somewhere similar probably spent as much as my whole studio cost just for their cabling.

man, you should call this the "law of cabling" or something.



for every home studio, there's another studio who's spent more just on cabling.

 

[SonicAlbert]

And also, is the stuff i have really that bad? I tried to make some decent descisions up front with some good research, and droped about 8 to $9000 by the time i had every last boom stand, mic clip and pop filter. Just to have what i do have, and now i feel like i wasted that cash on "prosumer" junk.

OR......were the choices i made decent choices for a new guy?

Decent choices for a new guy, no question! However, $8,000-9,000 to set up a fully functioning recording studio is really nothing. I know it didn't feel like nothing, but that's just seed money.

Now that you have a working setup you can upgrade piece by piece as your finances allow. That's where having a long term plan comes in. If you don't ahve the plan you'll just end up with more of the same kind of gear.

From now on, buy only the really good stuff. Do your research, take the time to save up the money, and only then buy something top notch. By the time you've upgraded your front end with mic/preamp/converter you might be amazed at what a difference it makes.

As far as the Rosetta 200, yes that's a two channel unit. Apogee does make an eight channel unit called the Rosetta 800. Do you need two channels or eight channels? I have two channels of UA 2192 because I decided that's all I needed.

 

[Golden]

The only advice I have for you is this... Take a step back, think about what you want to achieve sonically, think about what you want to hear when you play back your mixes... then fiddle with the gear that you already have.

If you're certain that it's time to upgrade, you'll need a good mic and a pre. However, the gear won't improve your mixes. You do that.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

that makes sense, its a decent aproach and kinda the one i had in mind, basically improve your "input" and work toward the end from there.

Yep. The key is to frontload the quality. This starts with the performance itself. A great performance will by it's nature sound better than an average one, regardless of the gear quality. Then get the tracking down. Without good tracking, the rest won't matter, with good tracking the rest can (almost) take care of itself. And so on.

Which is why I recommended the pres over the summing box (the only two choices you gave at the outset . But yeah, if we were to expand past those two choices (and hiring a roomful of Nashville Cats to play for you isn't an option ), microphones would be at the head of the signal chain and would be #1 to look at.

On a specific note, the two chanels like the rosetta, this is a two channel interface im assuming (i guess ill just look it up) but why jsut the two, why not an interface with more inputs

Fine, if you can afford it. But remember what Al said about a grand a channel? The UA 2192 that he uses is around $2400 for two channels new, the Rosetta 200 about $1800. And that just for the converters, that not including mic pres like you Firepods are. There is a Rosetta 800 that gives you 8 channelss for about $2700, but it's still a lot more expensive than what you're used to.

And also, is the stuff i have really that bad? I tried to make some decent descisions up front with some good research, and droped about 8 to $9000 by the time i had every last boom stand, mic clip and pop filter. Just to have what i do have, and now i feel like i wasted that cash on "prosumer" junk.

No, it's not that "bad". There no reason why cou can't get perfectly listenable results from it. But there is a lot of upgrade room.

It's like asking if a Canon EOS Rebel camera is "bad". No it's not. Would Ansel Adams or Annie Leibowitz use one? Nope. Not on a cold day in hell. Could you (with the proper lenses, lighting, etc. etc.) take perfectly good quality pictures with it? Sure. But they won't be Ansel Adams or Annie Leibowitz like.

There is a LOT of room for upgrade hardware wise. But the thing to remember is that the gear won't do it for you. You could have a top-of-the-line Hasselblad camera, but if you don't know lighting, framing, exposure, etc., your pictures won't be any more worth looking at than ones taken with a plastic disposable 35mm from your local CVS pharmacy's checkout line. No offense intended, but be honest; if someone stuck you in front of a big coal-burning SSL console with a mic locker the size of Keith Richard's medicine chest, would you really know what to do to make great sounds? Not yet.

If you got the money to burn, go ahead and get a decent mic and mic pre and I can guarantee you'll hear at least some difference off the bat from what you got now. But I think the absoluet best investment you can make is in time and expeience itself. When you get to the point where your gear is actually holding you back, the the upgrade will really be worth it.

G.

 

[Golden]

+ I think you're mad if you go drop 10 grand on a bunch of gear. Really think!

 

[NL5]

man, you should call this the "law of cabling" or something.

Not a bad idea! LOL

The Law of Cabling -

No matter how much you spend on your entire studio, someone else has spent as much on cabling theirs.

 

[SonicAlbert]

+ I think you're mad if you go drop 10 grand on a bunch of gear. Really think!

It really depends on how serious you are about it, how much you have to spend, and what your goals are. If your goal is to shop the songs around, try to sell them or sell albums, then it makes sense to put the extra money into the production.

 

[Golden]

It really depends on how serious you are about it, how much you have to spend, and what your goals are. If your goal is to shop the songs around, try to sell them or sell albums, then it makes sense to put the extra money into the production.

Understood...

The original poster has a track available in the mp3 clinic --> HERE

I was taking what I heard into account. Also, on a personal note, I put most of my faith into the song. As cliche as it sounds, if the song isn't there... well, you know the rest. For example, Britney Spears (high end gear) vs. Beck's Mellow Gold album (low end). That's my school of thought...

Nonetheless, I hear what you're saying, Albert.

 

[NL5]

If your goal is to shop the songs around

IMHO, if that's your main goal, I think your money is much better spent going to a real studio.

on a personal note, I put most of my faith into the song.

True enough, but all things being equal, I'd want my demo to sound as good as it could. It is a pretty competitive market, no?

 

[Golden]

Yanni makes some good sounding records. That won't stop his albums from sucking hard.

It's a very fine line in the brain. I just think that great work can be done with less. For a home recording set-up, I feel he can do more with less, while feeling good about budgeting his money at the same time.

He can certainly go out and drop another 10 grand, but that won't ease his pain. If making a good recording is what he's after, he should look within himself.

 

[Golden]

I hear things come out of Ocean Way that sound bad to my ears ...