What should I do about my client?

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chessrock

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I have this dude I've been doing some recordings for. I've really been cutting him a break on his rates, since I'm still trying to get more experience under my belt.

Anyway, before we got started, we agreed that this would be our plan of attack:

* We record a rough demo that we would use to pass out to potential drummers and guitar players that he wants to bring on board for his project. Once his musicians are on board, we can then start tracking "the real thing."

So far, this is the order we have established for the rough mixes:

1) Record looped drum tracks to be used simply as a reference, or a glorified click track.

2) Accoustic guitar tracks.

3) Electric guitar.

4) Bass and drums (probably just go with the looped reference drums, as this will merely be used as a means to recruit a drummer and for him to learn the parts).

5) Vocals

Okay, so far, we have all the looped drums and accoustic guitar tracks down. We also have the electric guitars down for two of the tracks. I must add that this all required a considerable amount of time and effort on my part in the way of editing. He is NOT a good guitarist by any stretch of the imagination. Luckily, I was able to locate bits and pieces of his playing that did sound good, and I was able to cut and paste them all over the song. Since he played to looped drums, I was able to make very clean and precise edits. It now sounds like he is a very capable guitarist if you listen to it from start to finish!

So now, I get a call from him, and he mentions that some of the songs don't sound powerful enough . . . and that he is looking for a more a "heavier" sound . . . and also the looped drums "suck."

How do I deal with this? :) I mean, the tracks he is refering to are the ones where all we have so far are the accoustic guitar on top of the "click-track" drums. I mean, I can definitely see his point that his ACCOUSTIC guitar tracks may not sound like Metalica, and that his CLICK TRACKS don't sound like Neal Peart. :) lol.

But basically, I am like the contractor who is building his house. A couple weeks in to it, all I've been able to do is dig out a hole for the basement. And he comes strolling by, telling me that his house isn't exactly the dream home he had envisioned. :) Well, thanks for telling me, Einstein, but all I've got is a freakin' hole in the ground. I sure HOPE you're not happy with it yet ! ! !
 
client

Chessrock, do the Don King thing- fire your client. Why any self respecting contractor would just leave the hole in the ground! Recording is one thing, producing is another. Find people with talent who are fun to work with, and then figure out how to get *them* to pay you for this. Bad musicians usually have no money. Also, you don't have to cut and paste your tracks, as a rule..Richie
 
Chess... on larger projects I take a 50% deposit on the estimated cost - at least if you or the client have to stop, you're not out as much (if any)....

For this guy, I would try a bit of education -- say you understand his concerns, but that you are only at the starting stages -- if he's a rookie, he won't be able to conceptualize what can be done or even necessarily see the whole picture before its complete... (kinda makes you wonder how he wrote the damn song then, but anyways!)

I would only go that route if he's already paid you something for your time so far -- if he hasn't paid you anything yet, and you suspect he's a deadbeat, then cut your losses and cancel the project.......

Good luck!


Bruce


PS -- just throw some reverb on that acoustic track - I'm SURE that'll fix it!!! :p

:D :D
 
Blue Bear Sound said:


PS -- just throw some reverb on that acoustic track - I'm SURE that'll fix it!!! :p

:D :D
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HEY!!! I represent that remark!!!!
 
I had the same problem a couple of years ago. I had two clients who were a pain, and I charged way too little for the effort I put in - but I needed to build a client base.

I had two different songwriters who wanted to record demos. We also agreed to do rough demos to hand out to "studio musicians". The demos would also be used by the writers to take home and develop ideas.

Problem was, they used the rough demos to play their "songs" for friends and family (which the demos were not meant for!!!). They would come back and complain that "my wife thinks the drums are wrong", my brother thinks the bass is wrong, my mailman thinks the keyboards are wrong.

As Bruce said - I tried to "educate them". The one guy just would not learn. He was convinced that his massive talent was not being capture correctly. I had to end our buisness relationship and yes, he did stiff me for several hours of studio time. I heard he went to another local studio and did a repeat of his prima donna act.

The good news is I was able to educate the other guy, he turned out to be a pretty good ( and more importantly motivated) writer - and we continue to work together and have had some artistic and financial success.

So - educate them if you can, ignore them when you can, fire them when you must, and always, always get some money up front!!!
 
Basically as far as getting paid for your work, the only leverage you have is the material recorded. You cannot let the rough mix or finished work out of your studio without having the money in hand. I generally discourage clients from taking a rough mix home bec of what mikeh experienced. They play it for friends and family whose obvious frame of reference is all the mainstream CDs they listen to all the time. They then compare your rough unmixed songs to fully finished music mastered by Howie Weinberg. The client doesnt get the positive reaction he hoped for (i.e. "omygawd, youre a rock star") and the shit hits the fan. Usually Im able to talk them down from the bridge and we continue until the song is finished. Thank God, my early clients were pretty ignorant about recording and were fairly generous and were grateful for the work done as I stayed up 36 hours straight to finish the mix in time for a convention they were selling the CD at. If he is having serious doubts about you, play him some of your fully mixed and mastered previous work that demonstrates your abilities.

In general, its important to sit down with a client for an hour or so before your first session with CDs of what kind of sound he/shes going for and explain where the sound will most likely be in relation to that goal...i.e. what is achievable and what is not.
 
Hey guys, thanks for the input. I don't release anything until the hours are paid in full, and his checks are good, so that's not a concern. He's a good, paying customer and all.

Perhaps I didn't clarify what I meant. When I asked "what should do," I meant should I slap him upside the head a few times? Should I recommend he go back to grade school? Call his shrink? His mom? I just can't believe how incredibly stupid this guy is, and I just don't know how to react.

I wrote him an email where I kind of talked to him like a kindergardner, re-explaining the concept of the "rough mix," and the fact that when electric guitars and drums are added, it will sound heavier and more powerful, like the other ones we did. :)

. . . And I also told him about the cheap reverb idea on Jesus' choo-choo train, and he flipped!
 
80/20 Principle.... 80% of your income will come from 20% of your clients. 80% of the pain in your ass come from 20% of your clients... the list goes on....

I would cut the guy loose. When I was mastering engineer, we cut people loose all the time. Time is money. Effort is money. Time and effort spend not generating money is money lost. If you're new to the industry, then I think it's imperative that you find clients that you can work with and actually finish a project with. The first few clients will usually test whether the industry is one you want to be in or not.

And never cut your rates for anyone. If you don't feel you'll worth your standard rate, then lower it.... but never cut your rate. And for hell's sakes, I hope you didn't tell the guy you were cutting your rate because you're still learning. You may have undermined your position in the working relationship. don't get me wrong, I have definitely done my share of pro-bono work.... but you gotta pick your spots.
 
Part of the rate-cutting had to do with some work he did for me on my web site, and part as a thank you for some job references he gave me (he owns a web design and consulting firm, and gave me a stellar job reference). So you can see I have some other interests tied up in this thing. It's just fun to bitch about clients. Don't you think so? :) lol. I remember the first time I heard the term "pro-bono,'' someone asked me if I was doing it . . . I replied, "or course I'm pro-Bono. Who doesn't like U2 or Sonny and Cher?" :)
 
My wife is a hairdresser,you'd be surprised how many of her clients are pissed that she can't make them beautiful.
If your customer is'nt happy tell him "hey it's a microphone,not a f**king magic wand"!
 
I only do this stuff for fun, but if I ran a business, I would call my clients "Johns" just for fun. Hey, who's in charge here anyway?

Fangar
 
c7sus said:
I thought your clients are "Johns".........:D
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Well actually they are in a wierd sort of way. And they are all innocent until proven guilty too. However, I decide at exactly which point they become guilty. Usually after they open their mouth for the first time.

Fangar
 
I had the same sort of situation... I was producing a demo for these 2 girls.... sort of a Britney Spears thing.... Not really my thing, but hey, if it goes anywhere, theres moocho dollars....

Anyways it started out that there would be 3 simple basic tunes, mostly to showcase there singing talents........

Anyways.... 6 fucking months later we were still at it... They were picking on every little thing, like the sound of the high hats, the cymbals were too dull.... so I fixed them, and then they were too crisp, so lets go back to the original cymbals, then hmmmmmmmmm the bass sounds too perfect (quantized).... So I played the bass on the keys by hand, and they loved it, but now to my ears it sounds all loose and sloppy.. (I like everything to be perfect)...

Then they felt they could do better vocally... so three months to redo all the vocals...

I eventually reminded them what the original intention was for this project, and they have taken up 6 months of my studio time, and producing work....

I did it for free... I was the songwriter, and it was one of them deals, that if it went anywhere I had a chance of making money from mechanical rights and royalties....

Man, Im glad thats over...


And No, I didn't even get a thank you...... In fact, they bitched that I only gave them one copy each (it was there responsibility to have them duplicated) They actually expected me to give them a bunch to hand out to there boyfriends and family......

I have to do cd's realtime, one by one... It be a cold day in hell when I started doing dupes in my studio....

They were hot, and great singers, and were models and probably had things handed to them real easy in life.... So now they expect shit like that, and it's just expected, no thanks is required....

In my opinion, a thanks would have been nice...
 
Hey Vox.. we used to charge $100 for the first CD and $10 for subsequent CD's... all at real time. cold day in hell or not, it was easy money. Maybe $75 per cd if they were hot as you say and threw in Lopp's hummer... ;)
 
Yea, yea. Hummers.

I have to agree with you on the whole "hot chicks getting things handed to them throughout life" idea. It's sad, but true, and ufortunately, it's guys like you and I that contribute to it all ! ! !

What the fuck does a chick know about a hi-hat ? ? ? I don't think I've ever even met a chick who knows what one is!
 
Try and work with a hot chick that used to be fat in highschool... Pretty much doubles the attitude....



Not bitter at all :D
 
chessrock said:
Yea, yea. Hummers.

I have to agree with you on the whole "hot chicks getting things handed to them throughout life" idea. It's sad, but true, and ufortunately, it's guys like you and I that contribute to it all ! ! !

What the fuck does a chick know about a hi-hat ? ? ? I don't think I've ever even met a chick who knows what one is!
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You've seriously never met any female drummers?
 
Yeah, not many women know the components of drums, but there are some out there.... Im not saying that as a slight against chicks... it;'s just that there aren't many female drummers.....

The ones I was working with, just called it a "ticking cymbal"... I sometimes felt that they were trying to show off/act as having a bit of knowledge, rather than actually addressing real concerns about the sound....

Cause, the friggin' hi hat was fine in the first place...

ARRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!

2 years of anger managment courses over this hi hat issue, and now it's all coming out again.. gee thanks guys.. :D
 
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