What if you were me - Mic Pres

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ChuckU

ChuckU

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Here's the deal, I've been doing a lot of recording lately, pushing my delta-1010 and recording 8-10 tracks at a time. It's usually six to seven drum tracks, a miked guitar cab or two and direct bass via my JStation spdif.

Everything with a microphone on the end of it is going into the pres on my Mackie 1402 and 1202 (10 pres total), out the inserts to the 1010.

My question is, if you were me, what's the next step mic pre-wise?

Let's assume $1500 to spend (one RNP and one Great river single channel will exhaust that, I know). Maybe we want to keep drum overheads (MXL-603's) and toms (sm-57, MD-421) with the Mackies for now and run the kick & snare thru a rack, or vice-versa.

My vocal mic is a Marshall V67. Is there a pre that goes well with that as well as a DI'd bass or a mic'd tube amp? Or am I better off with a better vocal mic and cut back on the pre budget?

I'd really appreciate some honest real-life feedback. To tell the truth, I'm pretty happy with my results given my mic locker, level of experience (~5 years recording) and audio interface (Delta-1010 - Sonar). I still don't know what I'm missing (but I didn't know what I was missing without monitors until I got my nearfields and now I don't know what I did before), so maybe this is the same type of thing.

Fire away......
 
mmm hmm...interesting questions. i'm no expert by any means, but i will throw my ideas out.

sounds like you are doing rock music...so, RNP could be a great choice.

I'm not convinced that the MP1NV is the best use of your 1,000 though. There are really good dual channel units in the same price range that do (or could very well when they are released)..

have you looked at that Toft ATC2? www.toftaudiodesigns.com - it has my attention. of course, havn't heard it yet...but, in a few weeks it will be in full production. supposedly the eq/compression should be great.

there's another thread going about it...if you want to check that out.

I'd def. upgrade that mic. the VTB-2 from Studio Projects also seems really promising..check out the thread on that for some detailed engineering notes and discussion.

an RNP and a VTB-2, would give you 4 channels of good quality pres for around $1,000...and then you could go after a nice mic.

-wes
 
ah sytek...a poor mans great river.

poor steve must be working with too many broke ass indie bands lately :)

hehe, j/k. i dont know anything about the sytek...though that review makes it sound well worth the money...

price per channel wise...cheaper than RNP or VTB2. mm hmm...
 
Thanks guys. I've looked at all of these (except the Toft) as well as the ART Pro MPA and the Tampa. There seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding ART, and the Tampa is $100 more than the RNP for only one channel.
When guys talk about the RNP as being transparent (and I've read reviews saying the same) I find that the Mackies are also described that way. So what am I gaining (no pun intended) here?

In case you're interested, this is what I AM getting now from the setup described. I don't know if anything would pop out upon listening that would make one say "You need such and such on the bass or snare, etc..."
The first 3 songs.
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1400&alid=-1
 
wes480 said:
ah sytek...a poor mans great river.

poor steve must be working with too many broke ass indie bands lately :)

hehe, j/k. i dont know anything about the sytek...though that review makes it sound well worth the money...

price per channel wise...cheaper than RNP or VTB2. mm hmm...
Click to expand...

Here's the Steve Albini thing about Sytek on rec.audio.pro:

I wholeheartedly agree that the Syteks are excellent mic amps and excellent
value.

They are also an interesting oddity, in that they don't follow any of the
current trends in mic pre-amp design, and are excellent by virtue of how they
are made, and not a quirky topology or exotic components.

If you open one up, you'll see a simple, elegant amplifier using what appear
to be bog-standard TL072 (I think, I don't recall) J-FETs. No expensive
transformer, no video-speed op-amp, no silver-foil-on-beeswax capacitors. In
short, no magic. Just a simple, well-laid-out design, using standard but
high-quality components which have been individually-selected for low noise
and tight tolerances.

The designer, Mike Stoica, builds and tunes them himself, and sells them not
for the highest price he could possibly get (he could easily get more), but
for a _reasonable_ profit which ensures he makes money from repeat business.

I own many channels of these, and I rate them qualitatively as equals - not
substitues for - my Massenburgs, Neves, John Hardys and the best console
pre-amps I have ever heard. They are crisp, clean and noise-free, and they
provide more-than-adequate gain for low-output mics like old RCAs, Altecs and
the like, without adding breakup, instability or hiss.

There is a golden age for any style of electronic design. Tubes began as
unruly, low-bandwidth, noisy, inefficient beasts. Transformer and tube
technology matured to the point that we were graced with lovely sounding
equipment by the late '50s and into the '60s. Microphones, oweing to their
simplicity, matured faster.

Transistor electronics were even more bastardly until designers like Neve,
Flickinger, API, and Trident placed the emphasis where it belonged, in signal
integrity as a whole, not just in the frequency-domain.

With excellent IC-based electronics currently being built by GML, Neve
(Rupertless), Neotek and Sytek, we may be approaching a breakthrough in the
quality of IC-based audio, as designers solve the subtle but serious problems
of earlier designs.

Most folks do, however, get it wrong, and we still have to suffer through
mass-produced semi-professional crap being used on a regular basis. Sytek and
things like it are an excellent alternative to this caliber of equipment, for
no more money. Hurrah.

-steve albini
 
the rnp is a colored sound not a clean sound by the way.

anyway, i listened to the mp3s. i'm thinking you should be able to do better than you are with your mackies. can you give us some details about how you route the signal? i'd like to know how you're getting the signal from the mackies to the 1010. are you going out at the inserts? if you're not, then going out at the inserts will improve your signal a lot.

steve
www.piemusic.com
 
If you are recording drums then I would be tempted to run the snare, bass out the inserts (like someone here said) and spend your money on two halfway decent condensor overheads and a good two channel pre (perhaps with a compressor built in + Eq). The reason being that dynamic mikes get by better with crummier pres and you are probably going to compress your kick and snare anyways for a rocking sound. It's been my experience that once you get a sound out of the kick and snare with the dynamics and compression (Plugins in your case ?) then blend the overheads on top of that to get a good stereo image. It really depends on how crummy your mackie sounds. Also, if you are doing groups to a sub mix do like group the toms and leave kick, snare, and overheads L and overheads R. I don't use a mike on hi hats generally.

Part of the trick of recording drums is learning how to record them. Mike placement is huge as is the room when you get to the overheads.
 
ozraves said:

With excellent IC-based electronics currently being built by GML, Neve
(Rupertless), Neotek and Sytek, we may be approaching a breakthrough in the
quality of IC-based audio, as designers solve the subtle but serious problems
of earlier designs.
Click to expand...

that's interesting since in most fields people are really starting to worry about how far IC's can take us into the future...

anyone know more about this "breakthrough" he mentions, or how much of a breakthrough it could be?

i definitely want a sytek, btw.
 
as for what you are getting with your mackies...very muffled sonud...definitely need some work on the engineering side..

throwing up even a great river, on that same job - isn't going to make it "sparkle". in fact it probably wouldn't change too much.
 
wes480 said:
that's interesting since in most fields people are really starting to worry about how far IC's can take us into the future...

anyone know more about this "breakthrough" he mentions, or how much of a breakthrough it could be?

i definitely want a sytek, btw.
Click to expand...

I think that post from Steve Albini is from 1997.

--Steve
www.piemusic.com
 
ChuckU--

For the kind of music you're doing, you might trade some message with Speeddemon. I don't know if he still posts here or not. He does post at my forum and on Harmony Central's recording forum. He records some very nice jazz combos. I think he could really help you out.

Here's my forum: http://www.studioforums.com/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=1436041581&f=1826095781

My suggestions are to cut back the number of drum tracks to three or four. Go out at the inserts on your Mackie. Listen to how you are positioning each mic. Put your hand on one ear and move around until you find a good place to spot each mic.

You might try getting Mark Gifford's Interactive Guide to Home Recording. www.pomona1.com It'd help you a lot.

Steve, Mojo Pie
www.piemusic.com
 
Ozraves,
These posts definitely have me thinking about the Sytek. Too bad I can't run out to Guitar Center and try one out;) ...

...As for my setup (and thanks BTW for listening):

All mics go to the Mackies and out the inserts to the 1010. I'm mixing, compressing and eqing entirely in Sonar, so the Mackies are there only for the pres in the signal chain. I also use them to route signals to monitors, headphones, etc.

What I don't like about going the insert route is that my overheads are hot as hell, even with the trim turned down.
:mad:

I will check out your forum and the Mark Gifford thing.

Thanks again

Wes,
What exactly did you listen to? Playback stats show only one hit.
 
ozraves said:
Here's the Steve Albini thing about Sytek on rec.audio.pro:

I own many channels of these, and I rate them qualitatively as equals - not substitues for - my Massenburgs, Neves, John Hardys and the best console pre-amps I have ever heard.

-steve albini
Click to expand...

sounds suspiciously like a load of crap. maybe steve would like to trade a couple of his massenburgs even up for my sytek.
 
ChuckU said:


Wes,
What exactly did you listen to? Playback stats show only one hit.
Click to expand...

i downloaded (not streamed)...the, red light, or something. the chick singer one.
 
i listened to angels before, i think. today, i listened to more. the jazz improv is a good recording to my mind. you may not like it but i think it's good. i also listened to a big of the alternative rock song. whatever you were doing on the jazz improv as far as recording technique is not bad. do more of that.
 
I think too many have got IC'itis!

It's sooo trendy to say.. "If it's got an integrated circuit anywhere in it then it must sound like crap."

I once had a hi-fi salesman tell me that the preamp I built was crap because it had 5534's in it. He was trying to sell me some $2000 esoteric pre that was supposed to unlock the meaning of the universe and bring back the dead! And this was nearly twenty years ago! This pre had received great reviews from those in 'the know'!

After I went home I did some research and found a picture of the said preamp in a magazine. The picture showed the lid removed and guess what was inside?... EIGHT 5534's! ;)

Nearly everything we hear has past through IC's at some point.. whether during the recording phase or playback.

I hear stories of 'so called' golden eared experts that practically claim they cannot not only tell if an IC is present anywhere in the signal path, BUT what type of IC it is! :rolleyes:

Let's see some of these experts put their money where their mouth is in some double blind tests!... I bet half of them would say....

"Oh I'm too busy right now... I have to go and change the paper in the bottom of the cutlery drawer!" ;)

I think a fair bit of this is nothing more than a carry over from the days where the first IC's came onto the market (741's etc.) and started replacing discrete components. YES they were noisy and had poor gain bandwidth and slew rates, but invariably they were used in the wrong applications. In time IC's improved and nowdays they can equal or exceed some discrete designs in certain situations.

Even guys like George Massenburg and Fred Forsell will concede that the gap between discrete and IC based designs has narrowed substantially... and these guys produce gear at the upper end of the market.

I don't advocate using IC's as the initial gain stage in a micpre, but buffering line level signals etc. is not curing AIDS so to speak. As for the Sytek, it uses a very well designed transistor front end followed by some IC's. There are plenty of revered twenty year old consoles kicking around with EQ stages full of TLO72's and 74's etc. with LF353's buffering signals all over the place.
Sure they could be replaced with better opamps but depending on their application within the circuit it may make little or no audible difference. In fact it maybe that replacing many of the capacitors could render a more worthwhile improvement.

Twenty five or so years back the ubiquitous NE5534 along with the TLO series opamps brought great improvement to the sound of well designed IC based circuits.

I have a Neve 3115 with a transformer mic input and class A output module and I love the sound of it for CERTAIN things. But it IS colored. Would I use it on everything?... NO!

I also have a couple of pres I built about ten years ago using some LM394 supermatched pair transistors in the front end followed by some 5534's. How does it sound?... Well it sounds really clean, clear and solid. NOT thin or edgey or TRANSISTORY or IC'ey!!

What's crucial is the design first and then how the chosen components are used to implement that design.

It's true transformers, inductors and tubes can be magic, but so so can a well designed bit of gear with high performance IC's in it!

Just my 2cents! ;)
 
Last edited:
pundit said:
I think too many have got IC'itis!

It's sooo trendy to say.. "If it's got an integrated circuit anywhere in it then it must sound like crap."

Twenty five or so years back the ubiquitous NE5534 along with the TLO series opamps brought great improvement to the sound of well designed IC based circuits.
Click to expand...

i didn't hear anyone knock ICs in this thread. Nor did anyone knock the Sytek unit, for that matter.

I simply brought up the point that Albini's time line seemed a bit strange to me - like you said, 25 years ago ICs had some big breakthroughs...etc...

I doubt any serious "breakthroughs" in ICs in the near future...that's not to say the units aren't good.

I have no problem with the statement about the Sytek being an "equal" to the massenburgs, john hardy, et. al. Whatever works works...I like Albini's stuff...

-wes
 
wes480 said:
i downloaded (not streamed)...the, red light, or something. the chick singer one.
Click to expand...

....not real drums. Guitars and bass direct to VS-880. Dynamic on vocs and pre-Mackie, as in "before I owned one". That's why I mentioned the first three tunes, but I appreciate your listening and your opinions.

Littledog,
Not that you opened the door, but any opportunity to drop by your place and hear the Syteks for myself would be appreciated. BTW, I'm still trying to get my $hit together to book some time on your grand.:rolleyes:

Ozraves,
Didn't mean to turn this into an MP3 clinic, but I do think there's a lot of value (for me, anyway) tied to having people kind of get a frame of reference. BTW, Jazz Improv was 3 mics on the drums;) and lots of bleed:D

Pundit,
Dude, you are way over my head here. I think I got the gist of what you're saying though. Thanks for the lesson;)
 
ChuckU said:
[BOzraves,
Didn't mean to turn this into an MP3 clinic, but I do think there's a lot of value (for me, anyway) tied to having people kind of get a frame of reference. BTW, Jazz Improv was 3 mics on the drums;) and lots of bleed:D
[/B]
Click to expand...

See, you don't need more channels than three or four channels on the drums. :)
 
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