wheelema
Boner-obo
The asking price of preamps, or the asking price of microphones? Or, to put it another way, which holds value the best?
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
The consumer grade stuff is always going to depreciate.
ALWAYS!
The pro stuff should hold it's own. Not that you'll get every dime out of every piece because things happen and folks need the money RIGHT NOW and something has to give.
In the end an Earthworks or Cranesong or Great River preamp is gonna hold it's value a helluva lot better than a Mackie 1604.
ALWAYS!
The pro stuff should hold it's own. Not that you'll get every dime out of every piece because things happen and folks need the money RIGHT NOW and something has to give.
In the end an Earthworks or Cranesong or Great River preamp is gonna hold it's value a helluva lot better than a Mackie 1604.
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
Stay Away From New Neumanns
Well, I'll certainly say that my Neumann TLM-103s are the most I've EVER lost in new gear not holding their value! Pisses me-off quite frankly. Don't think I'll EVER be buying a brand new Neumann again!! And I don't think I'll ever be recommending a brand new Neumann ever again!!! Of course, they bumped new ones back up, but I'll be lucky to get even close to half of what I paid when I bought them a few months after their release!
Well, I'll certainly say that my Neumann TLM-103s are the most I've EVER lost in new gear not holding their value! Pisses me-off quite frankly. Don't think I'll EVER be buying a brand new Neumann again!! And I don't think I'll ever be recommending a brand new Neumann ever again!!! Of course, they bumped new ones back up, but I'll be lucky to get even close to half of what I paid when I bought them a few months after their release!
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Are you collecting gear as a hobby/investment, or are you buying it to record with?
If to use for recording, I don't really see how the value/depreciation question even comes into play. It's totally irrelevant.
Basically, it's a crap shoot as to what gear will hold it's value and what won't. Analog gear holds up pretty well in my experience, but digital gear will depreciate extremely quickly. You'll easily find yourself feeling lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar when you sell digital equipment.
The finest analog gear will hold value the best. So I don't think it matters that much whether it's a preamp or microphone. What matters is if it's a *great* microphone or a *great* preamp. Great analog gear today will be great analog gear tomorrow, and therefore will retain more value.
In theory anyway!
If to use for recording, I don't really see how the value/depreciation question even comes into play. It's totally irrelevant.
Basically, it's a crap shoot as to what gear will hold it's value and what won't. Analog gear holds up pretty well in my experience, but digital gear will depreciate extremely quickly. You'll easily find yourself feeling lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar when you sell digital equipment.
The finest analog gear will hold value the best. So I don't think it matters that much whether it's a preamp or microphone. What matters is if it's a *great* microphone or a *great* preamp. Great analog gear today will be great analog gear tomorrow, and therefore will retain more value.
In theory anyway!
wheelema
Boner-obo
SonicAlbert,
Based out of LA huh? Where are you at? The Southbay? Malibu? Rancho PV? Culver City and points north, or perhaps East? God, I miss that place. Crazy, I know. The Guitar Center in Hollywood was pretty awesome; bet it still is. Can't say I miss the traffic, sure as heck don't miss the housing costs, or Compton. And Watts..... whoooo! When I was working at Paramount there was this crazy chap at the Melrose offramp from time to time who had a sign asking for $100K odd dollars to produce his own movie. Wonder if he is still there?
Anyway...........
People change. At least I do. Used to be into guns. Now I'm into home recording. The time will come, I'm sure, when I'll be into something else. I would like to buy quality that retains as much value as possible, but when all is said and done, I just asked the question as a way of killing time and making people think.
Peace and Fortune!
Based out of LA huh? Where are you at? The Southbay? Malibu? Rancho PV? Culver City and points north, or perhaps East? God, I miss that place. Crazy, I know. The Guitar Center in Hollywood was pretty awesome; bet it still is. Can't say I miss the traffic, sure as heck don't miss the housing costs, or Compton. And Watts..... whoooo! When I was working at Paramount there was this crazy chap at the Melrose offramp from time to time who had a sign asking for $100K odd dollars to produce his own movie. Wonder if he is still there?
Anyway...........
People change. At least I do. Used to be into guns. Now I'm into home recording. The time will come, I'm sure, when I'll be into something else. I would like to buy quality that retains as much value as possible, but when all is said and done, I just asked the question as a way of killing time and making people think.
Peace and Fortune!
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
wheelema said:
He's begging JLo for a piece of ass right now.
S
Strange Leaf
New member
Re: Stay Away From New Neumanns
Who cares about what value they hold? If you're not gonna keep them, why did you buy them in the first place?
Recording Engineer said:
Who cares about what value they hold? If you're not gonna keep them, why did you buy them in the first place?
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
Re: Re: Stay Away From New Neumanns
I really don't get what you're saying here... Are you saying don't buy it if you're not going to keep it?
I mean, come this Spring, it wil have been 5 years since I bought my matched-pair of TLM-103s. Is that not keeping them?
My TLM-103s were the first large-diaphragm mics I've ever owned. They have done their job with great success over these past years and they still hold their own next to most mics I've set them in the same room with, in the applications I usually use them in.
The truth is though, I strive for even higher quality than what I know the TLM-103 is capable of... And while I must admit that I AM getting rather high quality recordings with my TLM-103s in the applications I use them in (if I do say so myself), however, I have used mics that can produce even higher quality in the applications I currently use my TLM-103s in.
So, I would consider selling them if they held their value much better. I still may, having to bit the bullet... If that's what it takes for me to achieve higher quality recording than I already do, then so be be it.
Granted, we can all always be better engineers than we are, but knowing when you need to upgrade a piece of gear is part of becoming a better engineer.
Strange Leaf said:
I really don't get what you're saying here... Are you saying don't buy it if you're not going to keep it?
I mean, come this Spring, it wil have been 5 years since I bought my matched-pair of TLM-103s. Is that not keeping them?
My TLM-103s were the first large-diaphragm mics I've ever owned. They have done their job with great success over these past years and they still hold their own next to most mics I've set them in the same room with, in the applications I usually use them in.
The truth is though, I strive for even higher quality than what I know the TLM-103 is capable of... And while I must admit that I AM getting rather high quality recordings with my TLM-103s in the applications I use them in (if I do say so myself), however, I have used mics that can produce even higher quality in the applications I currently use my TLM-103s in.
So, I would consider selling them if they held their value much better. I still may, having to bit the bullet... If that's what it takes for me to achieve higher quality recording than I already do, then so be be it.
Granted, we can all always be better engineers than we are, but knowing when you need to upgrade a piece of gear is part of becoming a better engineer.
S
Strange Leaf
New member
Ok. Sounded to me like you've just bought them and regret it couse you saw them cheaper somewhere else.
But hey, the money you lost was traded for all the use you got out of them, right?
But hey, the money you lost was traded for all the use you got out of them, right?
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
Nope. Bought them a few months after their release, as previously mentioned.
Yeah, you could say that... I mean I'll say that all day long about ADATs and I know I'll be saying that in a few years with my Alesis HD24 or ANY other digital recorder I would have bought.
But my point is, Neumanns don't hold their value even remotely close like they use to... There was a time, not all that long ago, when Neumann would have NEVER allowed that. I was just letting people know times have changed. Today, a new Soundelux or something will hold its value MUCH better than any new Neumann ever will.
Yeah, you could say that... I mean I'll say that all day long about ADATs and I know I'll be saying that in a few years with my Alesis HD24 or ANY other digital recorder I would have bought.
But my point is, Neumanns don't hold their value even remotely close like they use to... There was a time, not all that long ago, when Neumann would have NEVER allowed that. I was just letting people know times have changed. Today, a new Soundelux or something will hold its value MUCH better than any new Neumann ever will.
P
pkmusic
New member
My first car was a Geo prism. Should I have kept it? Geo don't hold their value at all. Oh man, I should of never bought it!!!
I really wanted my first car to be a nice one, a porsche or viper, but at the time I didn't have the money. The Prism did the job but it didn't perform well. Shouldn't I get something that performs better? Or should I stay without a car until I can afford a viper cause I know I'll keep it?
I really wanted my first car to be a nice one, a porsche or viper, but at the time I didn't have the money. The Prism did the job but it didn't perform well. Shouldn't I get something that performs better? Or should I stay without a car until I can afford a viper cause I know I'll keep it?
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
Exepct I paid nearly $2400 for my first pair of large-diaphragm mics (because they're matched and I have all the accessories and a Neumann flight case that fits everything)... They would have been $2000 for just the mics... Had I spent $2400 on one mic, my options would have opened-up quite considerably! And I could have easily spent another $2400 on another to match it a year later if I so desired.
Had my TLM-103s kept 2/3 of their value, as I know other new and used mics costing around the same price as I paid for my pair have, I'd be selling right now for pretty much nearly an exact exchange for one mic I don't have the cash for. Instead, I'm lucky if they've retained 1/2 of their value... And just a year ago, they were selling new for 1/2 what I paid for the mics alone... I don't want to imagine what I would have gotten for my used ones at that time!!!
The mic I want is a vintage Neumann. Over the past 5 years, its value has kept-on going up and up... So as you can see, if you're buying Neumann, go vintage, and make sure it's in healthy condition before you buy it! Not only are they nicer mics than the current Neumanns, but they will also keep their value!
There are plenty of new mics out there now days that are just as good as the current Neumanns and cost considerably less. Plus, they'll hold their value better; for an extra bonus.
I'm not saying don't play at all until you can afford what you really want... I'm saying play cheap until you can afford something you can live with for quite awhile... Until you realize there's stuff out there YOU like better and can afford something you really want... And if you stay in this long enough, that WILL happen to you!
For me, I played cheap until I could afford what I considered the minimum point of entry into the large-diaphragm arena at the time. Today, that minimum point of entry can be had for MUCH less and with SO MANY more options.
Choose wisely.
Had my TLM-103s kept 2/3 of their value, as I know other new and used mics costing around the same price as I paid for my pair have, I'd be selling right now for pretty much nearly an exact exchange for one mic I don't have the cash for. Instead, I'm lucky if they've retained 1/2 of their value... And just a year ago, they were selling new for 1/2 what I paid for the mics alone... I don't want to imagine what I would have gotten for my used ones at that time!!!
The mic I want is a vintage Neumann. Over the past 5 years, its value has kept-on going up and up... So as you can see, if you're buying Neumann, go vintage, and make sure it's in healthy condition before you buy it! Not only are they nicer mics than the current Neumanns, but they will also keep their value!
There are plenty of new mics out there now days that are just as good as the current Neumanns and cost considerably less. Plus, they'll hold their value better; for an extra bonus.
I'm not saying don't play at all until you can afford what you really want... I'm saying play cheap until you can afford something you can live with for quite awhile... Until you realize there's stuff out there YOU like better and can afford something you really want... And if you stay in this long enough, that WILL happen to you!
For me, I played cheap until I could afford what I considered the minimum point of entry into the large-diaphragm arena at the time. Today, that minimum point of entry can be had for MUCH less and with SO MANY more options.
Choose wisely.
Last edited:
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
I'm not sure you are thinking of the value of the TLM-103's properly. You did get to use them for 5 years before you sold, after all. What you need to do is take your purchase price and subtract your selling price from it. Then, take that number and divide it by 5. That will show you what those mics cost you per year to own. It will probably be a number like $50 or less, something silly like that. That's the real cost to you.
You buy a car and drive it off the lot and it depreciates. Same with music gear, except for those items that achieve some sort of rarity and cult/collector status (or are just plain fantastic pieces of gear).
Wheelma, I'm in Woodland Hills. Traffic on the 101 gets worse every year, if you can believe it. I have different routes I take depending on the time of day. Got it mostly sorted out so I don't spend my *whole* life in the car. There are some destinations where sitting in traffic just can't be avoided though.
You buy a car and drive it off the lot and it depreciates. Same with music gear, except for those items that achieve some sort of rarity and cult/collector status (or are just plain fantastic pieces of gear).
Wheelma, I'm in Woodland Hills. Traffic on the 101 gets worse every year, if you can believe it. I have different routes I take depending on the time of day. Got it mostly sorted out so I don't spend my *whole* life in the car. There are some destinations where sitting in traffic just can't be avoided though.
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
You're absolutely right... I'm NOT looking at it that way; as I've mentioned. I'm looking at it as in comparision to how other mics I could have chosen (for the price I paid) held their value; as I've mentioned.
wheelema
Boner-obo
I believe it. God, do I believe it. I used to live in Carson and work in Culver City and the two hour crawl up the 405 was the worst commute I have EVER endured. I would arrive at work exhausted. The longest commute was from Hemet (where I am now) to Glendale, but as that was mostly on the train it wasn't that bad. You have my sympathy.SonicAlbert said:
wheelema
Boner-obo
The best of all possible 'illities is to have any gear appreciate, so that you make money AND you get the use of it. The second best of all possible 'illities is to sell the gear for what you paid for it, so the use of it was free. The second to the worst of all possible 'illities (there's no middle ground in my world!) is to sell the gear for less than you paid for it, so you lost, regardless of how trivial, some degree of money, and the worst of all is to get nothing, or near nothing, back on it at all.SonicAlbert said:
Like those poor bastards who bought Yugos or the first Hundayis.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Recording Engineer said:
Then you are going to need a crystal ball when you buy gear, or be psychic, because that's the only way you wil know for sure whether something will go up in value from where you bought it. And even psychics are wrong sometimes!
The other element you are not considering is the money you've made using those mics. It's not just about resale value. If you've recorded paying projects with them over five years, you've probably paid for the mics many times over. Nobody can ask more than that of gear.
The times I've been able to sell items for more than I bought them there has been a general theme that's the same: I bought them new but got a stinking good deal like a blowout price when the item was discontinued, or I bought them used and got a stinking good deal. In both scenarios, demand for the product has to go up after I bought it. That's the hard part to predict. It's also often necessary to hold onto the gear for years before selling, and it helps if it sat in the box unused all that time. Almost anything that gets regular use, is no longer in it's original packaging, etc., is going to lose value. Except those few items that reach cult status.
The middle ground products like TLM-103's are not going to be good candidates for price appreciation. It's a down market product for the manufacturer. In other words, they are relatively expensive, but not high end as far as quality: good but not great mics. In addition, they are probably made in large quantities. So for many years they will be readily available, not in demand by pros who will go for pricier mics, and the home/project studio people will be pushing the price down.
Also, any piece of gear is premium priced when it is first released.
wheelema
Boner-obo
Kind of reminds me of Beanie Babies.
P
pkmusic
New member
Elmer Fud. Kind of reminds me of how stupid we can be....Buying toys 10's and 100's times the actual value.
R
Recording Engineer
Moderator
Let me put it this way:
A brand Neumann TLM-103 was $1000 when first released. A brand new Neumann TLM-103 went as low as $600 from a dealer at one point. A brand new Neumann went as low as $500 on e-Bay at one point... $400 in some cases!!!
Tell me... What is wrong with this picture? You can't give me the "deprecition driven off the lot" speal. Nor the "think of how much money you've made with them" one either.
Look at the NEW market values of the TLM-103 and ALL the Neumann mics for the past couple years. I'm telling you... THAT shouldn't happen to ANY $1000 and beyond brand new mic purchase!!!
THAT is why I can't get what my TLM-103s are really worth!!!
Looking at the Shure SM-81... Price still in the same area as when I bought my TLM-103s nearly 5 years ago! And the TLM-103 is every bit as good as an SM-81. Different, but still good!
A brand Neumann TLM-103 was $1000 when first released. A brand new Neumann TLM-103 went as low as $600 from a dealer at one point. A brand new Neumann went as low as $500 on e-Bay at one point... $400 in some cases!!!
Tell me... What is wrong with this picture? You can't give me the "deprecition driven off the lot" speal. Nor the "think of how much money you've made with them" one either.
Look at the NEW market values of the TLM-103 and ALL the Neumann mics for the past couple years. I'm telling you... THAT shouldn't happen to ANY $1000 and beyond brand new mic purchase!!!
THAT is why I can't get what my TLM-103s are really worth!!!
Looking at the Shure SM-81... Price still in the same area as when I bought my TLM-103s nearly 5 years ago! And the TLM-103 is every bit as good as an SM-81. Different, but still good!