What do you know about Digital Multitrack recorders?

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Mongoo

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I'm not rich, but I'm willing to wait to buy what I really want, If only I knew what that was.

So lately I've been thinking about getting a Digital harddisk recorder with a built in cd burner. My thinking is that it is easyer to work with because it has alot of nobs and do-dads you can move with your hands. I would mainly want to use it for makeing studio-isc recordings of my band and other music I write. I know you don't need that many inputes becuase you just record one thing at time. But I would think the drums would need at least 4 tracks minimum, at least until you bump them to anoter tack as one.

This means (I think) that the mutitrack would have to have at least 4 xlr inputes for the drum mics. I have noticed though that most only have two. At least for around $1,000 to $2,000. I would like to at least be able to record 8 or maybe 16 tracks at the same time, for when I want to do ruff takes live.

Can you tell me what I'm definatly going to want in my multitrack and about how much I should expect to spend to get it? Perhaps even throw out some Ideas as far as brands and technical info I should know about.

Thanks for the help.

Mongoo

P.S. Is there a better place for a general digital multitrack dicussion? I didn't see any topics specific to this.
 
I use a zoom MRS 1266 bought off eBay for UK£400 (US$730)?. This was without an internal CD/RW but I've recently fitted one which I picked up (good old eBay again) for £25 ($45)? which works fine, (the zoom one costs £150!) but if you buy one new I wouldn't recommend this as it will invalidate your warranty.

Anyway, I've had it for 7-8 months now and despite being new to recording I found it fairly user friendly but you do of course need to spend a bit of time learning how to use it.

There are 8 mono tracks, a separate stereo track and a separate master track.

You can only record onto 6 tracks at a time and there are only 2x xlr inputs but I record the drummer first using four tracks and then bounce this down onto one track as you suggested you might. I use two condenser mics from a distance and close mic the bass and snare/hi hat area with a couple of SM 58s (1/4" jack inputs). I'm not by any means saying that this is good technique as I'm no expert but with a bit of mixing I get a sound that I (and more importantly our drummer) really like.

Decent quality live recording requires (in my admittedly limited experience) a lot of good quality gear. Hopefully some of the more experienced and knowledgeable users of this forum will be able to make some useful suggestions but I've got a feeling you might have to up your budget if you want to be able to record 8 or more tracks simultaneously.

The unit has loads of effects and amp models and stuff for guitars. Some are pretty good, some are useable and some I don't personally like but it's all about taste you can edit all the parameters anyway which sometimes helps. The in built processors fall into the same 3 categories but when I want better quality or want to learn more about something I've bought outboard rack units. Compression and parametric eq are good examples of this. That's the beauty of multitrackers, you can add better quality outboard stuff in most cases when you want to upgrade quality in a specific area.

I reckon if you buy a brand new one including CD RW drive it'll fall within the lower end of your budget.

You sound like a musician in a band who wants to record reasonable quality versions of your stuff. This is the same position I'm in and the Zoom has been great for me so I hope my opinions help.
 
Mongoo said:
I'm not rich, but I'm willing to wait to buy what I really want, If only I knew what that was.

So lately I've been thinking about getting a Digital harddisk recorder with a built in cd burner. My thinking is that it is easyer to work with because it has alot of nobs and do-dads you can move with your hands. I would mainly want to use it for makeing studio-isc recordings of my band and other music I write. I know you don't need that many inputes becuase you just record one thing at time. But I would think the drums would need at least 4 tracks minimum, at least until you bump them to anoter tack as one.

This means (I think) that the mutitrack would have to have at least 4 xlr inputes for the drum mics. I have noticed though that most only have two. At least for around $1,000 to $2,000. I would like to at least be able to record 8 or maybe 16 tracks at the same time, for when I want to do ruff takes live.

Can you tell me what I'm definatly going to want in my multitrack and about how much I should expect to spend to get it? Perhaps even throw out some Ideas as far as brands and technical info I should know about.

Thanks for the help.

Mongoo

P.S. Is there a better place for a general digital multitrack dicussion? I didn't see any topics specific to this.
Click to expand...


Well, here is my opinion. If you get one of those "all-in-one" digital workstation/recorders, you are hopelessy locked into their pre-amps. There is no way to bypass them. The best advice I can give is to get a standalone hard disk recorder and a good used mixer. You can always upgrade the mixer, or the HD recorder and bypass the board's pre-amps later if you want to upgrade. Hell, put your $$ into a great HD recorder and buy a Behringer board (if you have to). At least with the Behringer (or equiv) you can upgrade your pre-amps later. Think easy upgrade or you will have to start from scratch with ANY upgrade with an "all-in-one" unit.
 
I own an AKAI DPS 16. a 16 track harddisk recorder. You can record 8 tracks simultaneously but it only had 2 xlr inputs. the others are 1/4 in. Not much of a problem, you just need the rights cables. I have been recording my band with it for about 6-8 months now and have gotten some of my best recordings ever. We usual track eack trakc seperately, other than drums and sometimes track all at once. 4 drum tracks, 3 guits and a bass. This is kinda messy depending on the room and all the bleedthrough and shit. For the money I spent on it, I am EXTREMELY happy with it and see no need for any upgrades and when I DO see a need to upgrade, I will just buy a better recorder (better, as in more features) but for now, I am getting very clean recordings from it. There are a ton of editing features and you can mix manually, unlike a computer, where if you dont buy a mixer then you have to mix on the computer. anyway, thats my take. The dude.
 
i have a new aw16g by yamaha.
Its awesome.
I dont have any pre amp by- passing issues at all.
brilliantly clean recordings....best ive ever done.
Amazingly easy to use if you have half a brain.
Top notch effects, mastering, mixing, eq, you name it its got it.
I premix my live drums w a mackie and some rack stuff, send 2 drum tracks to the recorder.
Insane drum mixes.
crazy guitar mixes.
and bass from hell.
Im having a fuckin blast, and i sound good!!!!
I even did a ballad that came out sweet w a mic'd 12 string!!!

go here.
www.aw16g.com
 
on principle i'm with acorec. i'd in invest the money differently.

how about getting a pc with a delta1010 and a mixer? just a thought.

it's all about leaving your way open to upgrade in the future. i'd rather have a laptop with a USB interface if i was after a portable solution.

the facts are quite clear - if you buy a mixer and a hard disk recorder for $1000 you're going to get better of each than if you buy something that tries to do both, and effects, and wave editing etc etc etc.

that said, you can obviously get very good results with a digital portastudio-type thing.
 
I use a Aardvark Q10.
8 mono XLR inputs
1 midi I/O
1 Spd/if(somtin like that)
4 xlr's w/ insert and phamtom power each
2 xlr's w/ some thing to boost eq when direct pluggin guitar
8 direct outs (virtual patchbay)
stereo monitor out
headphone out

Connects via PCI dsp card that comes with it.

Sounds pretty darn good and for about $600 from eBay well worth it.
 
As far as the pre amps are concerned,

Is it fair to say if the digital recorder has 8 xlr's and 8 Balanced TRS and you don't like the preamps you could just send through the TRS instead of the XLR?

I guess what I'm asking is are only the xlr plugs pre amped?


Does anyone have any experiance with the: Korg D16XD, Roland VS2400CD, & the Akai DPS24. Can their pre amps be bypassed?


Also, what would be an example of a laptop based recorder that can record at least 8 - 16 tracks at once? What kind of hook up would it need: USB, USB2, Firewire, other?

Thanks.

Mongoo
 
"stuck with their pre-amps"....pardon my ignorance, reguarding the mult-track recorders, such as the Zoom MRS-1266 or 820, this would mean using any other pre-amped affects are out of the question? only their own on-board effects can be used? Which would mean, your "sound' outside the studio is left outside the studio. Unless you mic your amp direct to the unit.
I`ve been playing instruments for @ 15 years, I have just recently been experimenting with digital multi-tracks, stated with the little Zoom MRS-4, now I`m using the MRS-820. It sounds like alot of the folk here are experienced technically..so, I`ll keep reading posts and learn more....I`de someday like to have a full "budget" studio. The mixer and hard disc recorder interests me......take care.
 
I'm not sure about this, the Zoom MRS 1266 has a 'sub-out' jack and you can change the input source. It's defaulted after the master fader so it can be used as a second headphone input but you can change it so the signal is sent to a specific input or track. In other words you can use outboard effects, (with this unit at least, I don't know about other units). I think pre amps might be different. Presumably you can use external pre amps but it would just be a case of the signal passing through the external pre amp and then the internal pre amp? As you can probably guess I'm no expert but I thought the Zoom's sub out jack was worth a mention.
 
I'm curious about this preamp bypass issue as well, I'm trying a Zoom MRS802cd and I'm impressed with it with the exception of not being able to get the same sound through it that I get straight from my V amp Pro. Admittedly I just started yesterday with this machine but I was wondering if using the XLR ins on the Zoom would be advantageous to useing the 1/4" guitar input?

I'm trying this unit in my lil project studio with the hopes of importing projects into my DAW w/Sonar for further editing/mixing..

GREAT site btw;)
 
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There are some wonderful multi-trackers out there. To a great extent, if you can't get great recordings out of a standalone hard disc recorder, then it's your fault, not the equipment's. Check out James Taylor's "Hourglass" to hear what a simple 16bit recording set-up can do.

I'm pretty sure the Korg D1600 has four XLR inputs, but if you're using dynamic mics, you can always use 1/4 plugs to connect into the unit, saving the XLR's for condensors that require phantom power.

I have a Fostex VF160 (16 tracks, with 1 stereo master track) that is rock-solid stable, can record 8 tracks at once (2 XLR), and 16 at once with an ADAT interface. I've heard recordings done on equipment costing at least four times as much that sounded horrible -- noisy, and compressed. I blame the engineer.

For editing, a PC setup is better, but for portability, stability, compatibility, and upgradeability, I love what I have. Having come by and used my minimalist studio (and believe me, it's minimalist), a pro musician friend now wants to do an entire album on my gear.

My view is there are a lot of ways to go, and all can produce phenomenal results. Just mull it over for a while and see if you can get a sense of what will keep you happy for the longest amount of time.
 
again.....i have NO issues w pre amping anything.Every input, and every channel on my unit has its own specific controls/settings.
there is a dedicated pre amped hiz/loz imput on #8 setup specifically for stringed axes, and 2 xlr's on inputs 1 and 2. set up for vox .
YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO RUN ANY OF THE 50 ZILLION EFFECTS, EQ'S, PRE AMPS, FILTERS, GATES OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
sorry to scream.
But all of the features/pre-amps/effects of my recorder, the AW16g can be shut off at a moments notice.
At wich point the unit may be used basically as a hard disk recorder only.Only a helluva alot easier than any pc based bullshit
So you can then go bananas w your stand alone board, effects, or the vienna boys choir for that matter.
if you do go w just a hard disk recorder, now you have no choice but to begin purchasing outboard effects/pre-amps/and everything else......granted i use both...but the ones in the AW are pretty fuckin good.
Dont get me wrong, every patch isnt worth its wait in gold...but some are.

another point i want to also address is the upgrading concept.

when the time comes that i feel that the recording quality of this machine is not good enough for me anymore it will mean that Im filthy rich and famous and will never record myself again anyway.

not for nothin'....but if ya havent had first hand experience w this unit then you dont know what your talking about period.
Ive heard, used and seen other similar units and they just dont compare.

this machine is outstanding.

would you upgrade a ferrari 308 if it didnt need work?
no. maybe some of you would.
at least I wouldnt.


just my opinionated ramblings.
 
The only way to bypass the preamps on the standalone recorders is to use an external pre with an AD converter and go in through a digital input. Using TRS inputs does not bypass them. However, you can get some good results with external pres with the trim on the internal pres at minimum. I'm sure it'd be better to bypass them though. I'm thinking I'm going to get the Tascam FW1884 and then eventually get an Adat converter to use my good preamps with.
 
FatDogStudios said:
[

just my opinionated ramblings.
Click to expand...

I think you are right on the money. I've got an AW4416 and it is a VERY good machine, that makes very good recordings. Had it about 3 years now. And like you say..... you can use the preamp controls or not. I sometimes run through a tube preamp before hitting the 4416. And even then you can still use the onboard effects if you want to..... either in or out of the unit.

The reverbs and compressions are very good. Two effects cards that have very good patches. Automix and autofaders is something that now I couldn't live without.

This machine is not the weak link in my recording process. But, if I could change one thing about the machine... I would add the ability to connect an external video monitor.
 
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