What Confucius taught about songwriting

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CyanJaguar

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"Know the rules so that you can break them"

Ok, he was not referring to songwriting specifically but to everything applicable under the sun. It applies highly to songwriting though ( and jagular. He's a CPA and only the good CPAs' can do bad things because they know the rules through and through)


any attempt to break the rules of songwriting ( or anything else) without knowing the rules will always result in embarrassment.

knowing the rules is why good songwriters can break the rules and still get away with it.


"Know the rules so that you can break them"
 
Art doesn't need rules.

And on a related note, I'm sick to death of the verse/chorus format. More cliched than a love song, able to paint by numbers with a single sound, it's a turd, it gets airplay, it's stagnant musical growth.
 
subtractor said:
Rules suck almost as bad as MP3.com.
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"any attempt to break the rules of songwriting ( or anything else) without knowing the rules will always result in embarrassment."
 
After pondering this for some time I have come to the simple conclusion that rules are merely guidelines to help you develop a tune....musically or lyrically....but Cyan is sort of right....
there is not always emarrasment associated with the music that is developed by personages who have little to no knowledge of the rules of songwriting......as a matter of fact when discussing current trends in music, I think this is were innovation takes place and what was the norm becomes passe' and a new sound is developed.

of course, what might seem common place to the musician can be genius to the audience.....the herd needs to be fed it's daily grain....and it sucks it up and shits it out and the cycle continues.....

The audience doesn't really care if it is innovative or not....they just know what they like and tend to gravitate to music of similar composition and groove....

It does help tremendously to understand at least the basics of music......of course everything you have ever listened to will have some influence on how you create.....

just rambling here now so I will just shut the fuck up :D
 
reply to the verse chorus thing, I have tried to stray and tried to make things work as well as that format (verse chorus) and it doesnt seem to work. The reason verse/chorus is used is because it WORKS, musically, lyrically and to the listener it is easy to comprehend, I am a musician so I am open to a variety of things musically and to tell you the truth I cannot stand when a song just keeps going and going with no hook or chorus or great meldoy! Music is made to be heard, unless you are a troll living inder a bridge that happens to have a digital recorder. Listeners want to be entertained and want to be moved by a great chorus or verse or hook or bridge. Just my thoughts! later all
 
the dude said:
reply to the verse chorus thing, I have tried to stray and tried to make things work as well as that format (verse chorus) and it doesnt seem to work. The reason verse/chorus is used is because it WORKS, musically, lyrically and to the listener it is easy to comprehend, I am a musician so I am open to a variety of things musically and to tell you the truth I cannot stand when a song just keeps going and going with no hook or chorus or great meldoy! Music is made to be heard, unless you are a troll living inder a bridge that happens to have a digital recorder. Listeners want to be entertained and want to be moved by a great chorus or verse or hook or bridge. Just my thoughts! later all
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Well said.

I was going to ask Roktuk how he would stray from the verse/chorus format without sounding stupid to the world.

Maybe Verse/verse or Chorus/chorus.

joro, I totally concur. The audience could care less about innovative. They want entertaining.
 
It's not the "verse/chorus" per se that is the "rule", but maybe how you get there, segue, bridge, break key along the way to keep it interesting maybe? Call it "artistic license" or whatever you want, if it works then it is "right" no?
Jest this old farts 2 cents
 
I feel notes and chords are like seasonings and spices in cooking. There are no certain rules that must be followed when combining them, yet we all know what tastes good and what tastes like shit. New culinary styles, just as new music styles come along every so often and a new combination is defined. Just as in every region or style of cooking you have certain spices that are predominant, and styles of presenting in the creation, so it is in music.
 
the dude said:
Music is made to be heard, unless you are a troll living inder a bridge that happens to have a digital recorder.
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As luck would have it I am a troll living under a bridge. :eek:

For the most part I was just stirrin up a little trouble. :D
All good points and I get it. I guess I'm not "sick to death" of the format. It sure seems like a songwriting crutch sometimes. Classical and opera work, why not apply those generalities to modern music? It could work.

As for the herd, a quote from good old mom. "You'll eat what I give you and LIKE it!" ;)
 
I think anyone who wants to worry about rules has become lost in their frustration with conformity, and the real question should become; "Where does creativity come from"? Creativity or its source does not spring forth from a set of rules or guidlines. It comes some where from inside of each of us and that place or source has been one of mystery for most people. When we try or attempt to create it through rules or artifical means most of us are going to get frustrated with the results. Because in my opinion anyone who has had that experience of true creativity and inspiration knows how special that moment is and no matter how humble or less than perfect their effort is, it is still a gift.

Keep the faith....Ozlee
 
rules are for the fearsome :)

like Roktuk said, art doesnt need rules - therefore it is art, the expression of creativity. how can there be creativity, where rules are?
 
Verse/Chorus

Try listening to some techno music. Techno has evolved away from the typical verse bridge chorus structure towards a new type of structure which is different for every piece. In fact, as much creativity goes into the song structure as into the actual melodic and rhythmic content itself.
 
Re: Verse/Chorus

doctor_egg said:
Try listening to some techno music. Techno has evolved away from the typical verse bridge chorus structure towards a new type of structure which is different for every piece. In fact, as much creativity goes into the song structure as into the actual melodic and rhythmic content itself.
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I wouldnt be surprised if this is one of the reasons why techno is not as mainstream as other forms of music
 
What the hell are the rules anyway. I have never heard nor seen any rules for songwriting???:D
 
"rules" is just a definition.

Music theory is an after the fact description of music... it's all in the sound. Bach didn't write according to rules, he wrote what he thought sounded good - then people analyzed it and came up with rules...

songwriting rules are just commonly used aesthetic forms that people are used to hearing.
How about hearing a minor third against a major third? If you listen to blues or blues rock, you hear it all the time and it sounds good because you've heard it a million times and it sounds natural... if you hear it in another context, it sounds like shit.

if you hear a deviation from verse/chorus in a so called pop song, it may be a bit weird - but it happens succesfully all over the place - just not in what you expect to hear from pop.

fuck the rules.
 
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