Warm/Bright/Dark/Cold Clarification?

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darnold

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I dont know if this is the best forum for this. But this is something i wanted to discuss with the forum to help clarify the definitions of Warm/Bright/Dark/Cold sounds. Of course everyone has their own opinions and variations of each, but in general i believe there is a standard we can all agree on. I also find myself getting confused because i have changed my opinion on what bright and warm is.

First of all, the main thing that is confusing me is that Bright is not the opposite of warm but it is used as the opposite as warm. Warm is generally considered the the roots of the harmonics in the signal being in the low mids and bright as being the roots ofthe harmonics in the high mids and highs. But if the opposite of the word warm isnt the opposite of the word bright how could that be.

But the general definition that most people agree with on the term dark is considered in the back, not infront kind of a sound. And we all know that the opposite of the word dark is bright. But yet the definitions of the two are completely unrelated. Shouldnt the definition that is being used to describe bright be used in place of the term "cold" instead? It is the opposite of warm. Or maybe it should even be hot if its high frequencies?

And bright should be described more as an up infront and in your face sound which usually isnt achieved by the high mids and highs.

Maybe not everyone looks at these definitions like i do. And some might look one way and others might look the other way. But isnt that why it gets so confusing to use those terms?

Lately i have been thinking of it that way, so its been difficult translating from people who say a mic is bright. Is their definition that its got alot more high end then low end or is it that it is in the sound is upfront and in your face? its really hard to tell.

I just think we should try and standardize it as much as we can to lesson confusion and strengthen the communication with everyone. Ultimately something like that is a major lack of communication since those are common terms that audio engineers use all the timeto describe their sound, but it might be communicated wrong depending ont he individual. That was my logical look at the terms.

Anyway just a late night ramble kind of but its been on my mind for a while :D.

danny
 
heres what I think.

warm-well balanced, rounded, smooth, overall nice

bright-overbearing high frequencies, possibly missing lows

dark- missing high frequencies, bass heavy, dull sounding, lo-fi

harsh- too many mids-highs, begins to hurt your ears after a while. Even if the lows are fine, the "painful" frequencys stand out too much
 
I think they are opposites - warm = mids, cold = no mids, bright = highs, dark = no highs.
 
personally, I don't consider warm, bright, or dark to be negative. Harsh I would typically consider to be nagative, but the others are sort of more flavors.
 
Bright and dark are neutral terms, and they have to do with the overall frequency balance of a given sound.

A bright sound is one that has a lot of higher frequency content. Clear, articulate, etc. Dark just means less treble; not as clear / articulate, etc.

Terms like harsh, warm, and muddy have more to do with texture. For example: Something that's very bright, for instance, isn't necessarily going to sound harsh ... unless it contains some sharp transients or cutting overtones. Something that's dark will only sound muddy if it has no definition to it. Warmth is harder to define, but overall, I think it has much more to do with the lack of sharp transients in the higher frequencies.
 
Warm: how my recordings sound when there is a little more bass.
Dark: how your recordings sound when there is a little more bass.
Bright: how my recording sound when there is a little more treble.
Harsh: how your recordings sound when there is a little more treble.
 
Who was it that started a thread about the use of warm to describe analog sound and how much they hate that term? I think it's overused, myself. It seems to be applied to everything. I avoid using all those terms. I don't know enough industry speak to back up any statement I make in that regard anyhow...
 
notbradsohner said:
bright-overbearing high frequencies, possibly missing lows
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Personally, I would call that "tinny" if it's missing lows... or maybe missing lows and a good chunk of the mids as well....
 
Rokket - Thats what im talkinga bout. Theres like a lack of communication with those terms. Because i dont really mean anything specific. To some people warm is english, some people french, some spanish, some italian, etc. It only makes sense to the people that speak the same language. Like what if some people think the word warm is italian and some others think the word warm is french. In Italian the word mean pig and in french the word means mother. Get that italian and the french person talking together and have both of them put a sentence with the word warm in it. They both understand the word warm, but the italian thinks your talking aboutsomeones pig and the french things your talkinga bout someones mom. So really the communication is lost.

Also i dont really think any of them are bad either. its just, based on that. if someone tells me a C1 is bright, what are they talking about exactly? If i go by my understanding that bright makes it upfront in your face and what their really trying to communicate is that its got alot of high end and kind be harsh or shrill on peoples voice (which btw those words could be something totally different too) then when i get the microphone cause i needed the "bright" i would be very dissappointed.


I guess maybe what im trying to do here is find a solution. either quit using words like that all together and just plain out be more detailed on whats happening, or come up with a universal set definition for the words that everyone understands.

danny
 
darnold said:
Rokket - Thats what im talkinga bout. Theres like a lack of communication with those terms. Because i dont really mean anything specific.
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It's a lot like wine tasting or movie reviews. You just have to know how to read between the bulls**t.

Some Examples:

Reviewer: This mic has a warm sound.
Reality: This mic has no high end.

Reviewer: This mic is bright.
Reality: This mic has no low end.

Reviewer: This mic is open sounding.
Reality: This mic has no high end or low end.

Reviewer: This mic is the best mic I've tried since my [insert mic here].
Reality: I didn't like my [insert mic here], either.

Reviewer: I hooked it up to my tube preamp and it really brought out the sound.
Reality: I hooked it up to a Behringer mixer the first time, and it sounded like ass. I apologize for my earlier review, but the lawyers won't let me say that out of fear of a lawsuit.

Reviewer: This mic rocks!
Reality: This mic is great for live ska shows and polka bands.

Reviewer: This mic is the perfect addition to any collection...
Reality: ...to sit on the shelf with the rest.
 
if you're going to think of it as frequencies...think of it even more basic than that and think of chords.
Maj7 or Maj9 chord can be considered warm and pleasing. It's a big chord used in jazz ballads.
minor chords can be considered dark. a sad, bluesy song can be minor.
Bright chords can be considered major chords...usually up high on the piano so they pierce through the song.
Harsh can be thought of in chords like tritones, or other chords with very close intervals.

anyway, that's what i think of when i hear those terms. when someone says bright, i think of how a bright chord might make me feel.
 
Ok, Danny, I'll bite on this one, and say something from a doofus standpoint, someone who doesn't know much about recording, mixing music, but listens to a lot of different stuff.

These are what I feel the terms mean to me as a listener, not an engineer, or audio pro.

Warm has a good, full sound, not tons of highs or lows, but everything is well balanced. Maybe some Alice in Chains, or STP. Rock with some punch, but not overbearing in one particular area.

Bright might be more poppy stuff. Some Greenday, or something where the drums aren't as heavy, and the bass is cleaner sounding. Not harsh, as in too much high end, just not as much lows.

Dark, I'd say is Slayer, or something driven by a heavy drum sound, mainly bass, more reverb on it even. Somthing that makes it stick out, yet not all lows. All lows would be dull.

Harsh is tons of highs and mids, maybe near or slightly above distorting, and everything gets convoluted. Just runs together, and some instruments/voicings get lost in all the sound.

Doesn't mean any of these are bad, as they all have there place if that's the sonic arrangement someone wants. I can't sing worth a shit, and have used eq to make my voice fit a particular song by making it lo-fi, and it worked for that, but would be very dull, and empty in a song that needed good, clean vocs.

Anyway, just my opinion, and it's only worth about $1.25 these days, but I read the thread, and thought I'd respond.

Ed

PS. Just read the post by benny, and that is a cool way of looking at this.
 
darnold said:
Rokket - Thats what im talkinga bout. Theres like a lack of communication with those terms. Because i dont really mean anything specific. To some people warm is english, some people french, some spanish, some italian, etc. It only makes sense to the people that speak the same language. Like what if some people think the word warm is italian and some others think the word warm is french. In Italian the word mean pig and in french the word means mother. Get that italian and the french person talking together and have both of them put a sentence with the word warm in it. They both understand the word warm, but the italian thinks your talking aboutsomeones pig and the french things your talkinga bout someones mom. So really the communication is lost.

Also i dont really think any of them are bad either. its just, based on that. if someone tells me a C1 is bright, what are they talking about exactly? If i go by my understanding that bright makes it upfront in your face and what their really trying to communicate is that its got alot of high end and kind be harsh or shrill on peoples voice (which btw those words could be something totally different too) then when i get the microphone cause i needed the "bright" i would be very dissappointed.


I guess maybe what im trying to do here is find a solution. either quit using words like that all together and just plain out be more detailed on whats happening, or come up with a universal set definition for the words that everyone understands.

danny
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Put in that light, I guess the only thing you can do is take it with a grain of salt when someone uses those terms. Really, it's all individual opinion in the end. One person may like that sound, another will hate it. It's all a grey area to me, which is why I stay out of it. I was more or less buying gear based on availability when I first started out anyhow. Sure I read reviews and lurked here for 8 months trying to learn first, but the bottom line for me was that the gear that was discussed here was not available to me for various reasons (mainly the cost: an SM 57 costs about $250 in Japan! :eek: ). I went with what I could get, and made it work for me.

That's how I judge "warm", "bright", "dark". I guess I'm ass-backward, but I get there.
 
well I think you opened pandora's box and everyone was better off before... you fucked it up now ;)
 
grn said:
well I think you opened pandora's box and everyone was better off before... you fucked it up now ;)
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Now everyone will have to suffer the seven plagues: warmth, brightness, smoothness, darkness, harshness, sibilance, and autotuned singer wannabes whose every note is randomly between a third and a fifth too low.
 
haha. alot of good responses.

its just one of those things that i always think of when ih ear someone say this is warm or bright or whatever. like i always want to say something but then stop because their really might not be a point to it or a resolution.

But it was 3 in the morning and i just wanted to say something :D.

I think all in all like some have said, its just pointless in general to take those terms seriously. But thats what im saying, it can really confuse a newbie whos looking for that new mic. They have nothing else to go by. It can lead to alot of dead ends.

Just one of those things though i guess. Eventually the newbies will learn what it means to them and know when to take things for a grain of salt.

Danny
 
Being a live engineer as well I am used to having to translate on the fly between what musicians say and what they mean. So I guess for me I don't worry about it.
 
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